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Old Mary_Fiona
 
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Quote this post and reply to it Post#1 @ 07-24-01 , 06:12 PM


Ok,

So what is the value of an independent appraiser?

I guess I pose the question because I may very well be too trusting. I have read alot of customer testimonies from different sites on the web who were very happy with their purchases. The dealer eyeballed a great diamond and sent it along in good order and the customer was thrilled.

Why should I go to an independent appraiser when
1)I will never be able to validate his findings myself
2)If you appraise one diamond and it turns out to be a dud, you're locked into getting every diamond appraised. Wouldn't it be foolish to spend say $100 on an appraisal, find out it's a dud and then choose another diamond without getting it appraised? Why not jump in blind the first time?
I don't really want to spend the money on an appraisal more than once, so if I'm not happy with the diamond that I have appraised... It feels like getting stuck in a corner to me..
3) The money I spend on an appraisal comes directly from the available funds for the gem in the first place..
4) What was it.. 1% of diamonds are AGS000? Every H&A / SuperbCert / EightStar etc is in that 1% .. just by buying one of these, aren't I guaranteed to have a top quality diamond?

My questions aren't meant to be antagonizing but are just borne out of my confusion. I am looking for mental clarity.

Thanks all!

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#2 @ 07-24-01 , 06:20 PM


You will need a thorough appraisal to buy insurance for the stone anyway. Get it before or afterwards. You can make a deal with the retailer that if the diamond doesn't check out as represented, he pays the appraisal fee. If it's the same, you pay.

Shelby

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Only for big rocks
Quote this post and reply to it Post#3 @ 07-24-01 , 07:40 PM


I hear you, Mary. I only would do it for larger purchases where the stakes $$$ were high and I wanted to make sure I wasn't *dazzled*. For smaller stones, I really couldn't care so long as they look "good enough". But diamonds are very expensive, and the larger ones (2 carat plus) are nothing to tinker with, as a few grades off and thousands of dollars are dribbled away.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#4 @ 07-24-01 , 09:59 PM


For me the independent appraiser comes in if I have doubts/uncertainties about the stone and representations given to me.

The independent appraiser is really just a 2nd opinion. If you trust the 1st appraisal and feel that it was done right then there's no real need for the independent appraiser.


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#5 @ 07-25-01 , 09:04 AM


Mary,

I think you pose a very good question. I thought about the same thing when I was searching for my wife's diamond. I personally think you can get to some "middle-ground". I did as much research as I could before I purchased and narrowed down my selection. I then sent it to an appraiser (rockdoc) as a "final check". I realized there was some risk that I would have to go through this process more than once, but I felt that paying around $100 or so on a $6,000 purchase was more important for my piece of mind.

Let me give you my thoughts on the points you make below:

Quote:
Originally posted by Mary_Fiona


Why should I go to an independent appraiser when
1)I will never be able to validate his findings myself

Actually, I don't think this is necessarily true. Some appraisers have the equipment (ie. Firescope, brilliancescope, polariscope, etc.) to show you exactly what they found with regard to your diamond.

2)If you appraise one diamond and it turns out to be a dud, you're locked into getting every diamond appraised. Wouldn't it be foolish to spend say $100 on an appraisal, find out it's a dud and then choose another diamond without getting it appraised? Why not jump in blind the first time?
I don't really want to spend the money on an appraisal more than once, so if I'm not happy with the diamond that I have appraised... It feels like getting stuck in a corner to me..

I agree with this to an extent. However, I decided for me it would be foolish not to spend $100 on a $6,000 purchase. I thought it would be more foolish of me to avoide the cost and pay $6,000 on something that I was not 100% confident in. See my comments above as well.

3) The money I spend on an appraisal comes directly from the available funds for the gem in the first place..

I hear you, but I would refer back to my response for #2.

4) What was it.. 1% of diamonds are AGS000? Every H&A / SuperbCert / EightStar etc is in that 1% .. just by buying one of these, aren't I guaranteed to have a top quality diamond?

My personal opinion is that if you are purchasing one of the "branded" diamonds such as the ones you mentioned above and others, you do have some additional assurance as to what you are purchasing. However, as has been discussed many times here, not all AGS000's are created equal!

My questions aren't meant to be antagonizing but are just borne out of my confusion. I am looking for mental clarity.

Thanks all!


Just my thoughts. Have a great day!



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Independent Appraiser
Quote this post and reply to it Post#6 @ 07-25-01 , 09:27 AM


I wanted to tell you about me experience with Dave Atlas at GemAppraisers.com.

I was in the process of purchasing a fairly large oval. Fancy cuts like the oval can be difficult to compare due to the wide range of cut quality.

I hired Dave to review some diamonds that I felt "met" my conditions. Dave responded quickly and gave very detailed information regarding the quality of the stones and their cut. It was worth every cent he charged, from a person who deals in this business everyday, to know that the stone was as I expected.

Don't hesitate to use an appraiser. It will give you peace of mind and can save you from making a costly mistake.

Good Luck,

Quack1

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Is an independent appraisal really worth it?
Quote this post and reply to it Post#7 @ 07-25-01 , 11:39 AM


Unfortunately, you don't always get what you pay for. Isn't it a wise person that protects their investment? If you were to buy a used car, wouldn't you bring it to a mechanic to check it out? In the case of a diamond you may be paying even more than a new car would cost you. If the diamond is not what the seller represents it to be, then a report could end up saving you much more than the cost of the report. If the diamond is what it's represented as, then you have the peace of mind to know that you've probably dealt with someone reputable. Some dishonest dealers go on the assumption that you will not pay the money it costs to get a good independent appraisal done, so they play the odds and maybe years down the road, when it's too late you find out it's not the diamond you thought it was.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#8 @ 07-25-01 , 12:24 PM


Well, I'm going to buck the trend here. You do need an appraisal for insurance purposes. What you don't need in my opinion is a twenty page book like Rockdoc provides. If you buy a stone certified by AGS or GIA, have an appraiser verify the stone matches the cert and move on with life. If the stone is laser engraved and this is on the cert, you won't ever have to worry about the old switcheroo. YOU should be able to pick the stone you like. An appraiser should verify it is what the cert says. That's all you or the insurance company needs. Don't get caught up with an appraiser with alterior motives (i.e. a "list").

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Just one more thing
Quote this post and reply to it Post#9 @ 07-25-01 , 01:11 PM


Many people speak of dishonest dealers. But there are also dishonest independent appraisers.

I'm not speaking of any appraiser that I know of on this forum, but just making a note that all dealers are not equal, and all appraisers are not equal either.

The choice of using an appraiser is the customers choice, the same as what dealer they use, or diamond they buy.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#10 @ 07-25-01 , 02:11 PM


I used Dave Atlas to give the stone I purchase a look over as well. I agonized over whether or not it was necessary. People were split even on DTalk. Some said have it done but many said since it was AGS, Branded and engraved it should be fine.

I finally decided to send it out for peace of mind and I was VERY happy. Dave was quick 1 day turn around including shipping, reasonable (about $60 including shipping) and I felt 100% confident in my purchase and still do today. I guess I know myself well enough to know if I didn't scope it out I might always wonder in the back of my mind.


Good Luck

rr-

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Independent appraiser, NOT another vendor
Quote this post and reply to it Post#11 @ 07-25-01 , 02:46 PM


Make sure that you don't just take it to another store to have it appraised. Many unscrupulous vendors will try to undervalue and undercut the other vendor's sale and sell you something from their own stock.

Shelby

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"Twenty page book"
Quote this post and reply to it Post#12 @ 07-25-01 , 06:05 PM


Catfish wrote:
"What you don't need in my opinion is a twenty page book like Rockdoc provides."

In order to keep an appraisal compliant with legitimate appraisal guidelines it is sometimes necessary to include information in the document that you the consumer or even your insurance company may not need. This information may be needed down the road in the event of a claim or if the appraisal is challenged.

"If you buy a stone certified by AGS or GIA, have an appraiser verify the stone matches the cert and move on with life."

Be careful of the word certified. GIA does not certify anyone or anything. And even though a lab report covers the grade and condition of a stone, it does not give a value. And more importantly it does not give a researched value as a competent appraiser would. This researched, documented and supportable value is what is needed for insurance. Why pay premiums on a potentially inflated one-page appraisal given by a questionable seller. The multiple pages of a professionally done appraisal shows the process of valuation and the research used to find appropriate markets and comparable values.

"Don't get caught up with an appraiser with alterior motives (i.e. a "list")."

What do you mean by "List"?
I agree with avoiding appraisers with alterior motives. But I usually think of them trying to sell you jewelry.

[Edited by ArthurMan on 08-03-01 at 09:41 PM]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#13 @ 07-25-01 , 06:17 PM


Necessary? No.

If you are like me, you do it for the piece of mind when making a first-time-with-that-internet-vendor purchase. Like everything else, you pays your money you takes your chances. Some need more reassurance than others.

As for The List, it's Rockdoc's list of vendors that will send him a stone without charging the client. A few assert that such a list inherently shows some bias, though others see it as simply a service to consumers. The most cynical among us think that Rockdoc must be getting a kickback from those dealers. I think I can guess where catfish falls.

R/A

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thanks all
Quote this post and reply to it Post#14 @ 07-25-01 , 06:30 PM


Thanks everyone for your advice.

I see now the value of an independent appraiser. I guess I wasn't thinking along the same lines.. I think I mentioned before that I tend to be too trusting. I wasn't thinking that a vendor would try to sell you a cheaper stone for more.

I guess if you are going to pay $3,000 for a stone that is actually only worth $2,200 then even in that case, spending the extra $200 would save you a bit.

And if your $6,000 gem turns out to be worth $4,000, you can return it (assuming that you got a gem from someone with a good return policy) and save yourself a big mess. In this case it is a very wise descision.

Of course as you go downwards to cheaper diamonds, the value of the appraisal is getting less and less. I suppose this would be reflected in Rockdoc's pricing policy...

So if you are buying a $1,500 gem, and the dealer is taking you for $200 more than the gem is worth, then the appraisal really isn't worth that much..

Ultimately I guess I wasn't thinking on the same scale. Canadian dollars tip the scale quite a bit. Essentially, the cost of the diamond to a Canadian is double or more what you see in the US. (eg $6,000US diamond = ~$11,000CDN)
Since we generally don't get paid as much (at least in the computer field) and pay higher taxes, you would have to be a pretty well-to-do Canadian to be going for a 1-1.5 carat gem...

So! If I am purchasing a $2,000 - $2,500 gem then it's kindof borderline whether or not to do the appraisal.. am I right?
So essentially, the difference between a $2,300 gem and a $2,500 gem may be worth the risk of trusting the vendor (provided they seem trustworthy) and going for the nicer gem.
So.. suggestions? Who says "go for the gem" and who says "go for the appraisal"
??

-Christopher
(yes I am a boy/guy/dude/man etc..)
(yes.. a manly name would have been more convenient)


[Edited by Mary_Fiona on 07-25-01 at 06:32 PM]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#15 @ 07-25-01 , 07:12 PM


You need the appraisal to get it insured. A simple, one page appraisal that confirms what it is (the 4 c's) and the estimated value. This should not cost that much ($50 US or a little more). What you don't need is to pay $200 for a 20 page appraisal.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#16 @ 07-25-01 , 08:31 PM


quote Rockdoc:

"Sure there are lots of dealers who want to criticize my "list". But do these same sellers criticize GIA, AGS, IGI, and EGL? These labs are paid by the sellers and cutters. Who's interest is primarilly served?"


So, what you are saying is don't trust GIA, AGS, etc. Only the great Rockdoc can tell you the truth. Blah, blah, blah.

quote Rockdoc:

"Its patently obvious that you advice is certainly not from any basis of knowledge."


Not just obvious, but PATENTLY obvious. Blah, blah, blah.

quote Rockdoc:

To insure jewelry, I agree, you DON'T need one of my incredibly complete and thorough reports.... "but when it comes CLAIM time... that's a horse of a totally different color."
"Suppose something happened to me, and I wasn't there at claim time? My reports are thorough enough to stand up on their own... That is the basis of why I do what I do.... my job is to be as complete and professional so the client doesn't have unexplained issues to deal with at claim time."


Insurance companies differ. Chubb will write a check for the amount of the policy. Period. Others will replace the stone with one of a like kind. They will get you something with the 4 c's of the diamond you have had appraised. This doesn't take a book report. Like I said, insurance companies differ. Some are better than others. A 20 page appraisal won't do a bit of good with a bad insurance company. Nor will it make a difference with a good one. They will settle the claim however they see fit.

I've been watching your self promotion and art-holier-than-thou garbage for several months, and I could care less what you want to say about me. Flame on. Just make sure you are getting your book reports out on time for a change.

[Edited by catfish on 07-25-01 at 08:57 PM]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#17 @ 07-25-01 , 11:27 PM


quote rockdoc:

I sometimes spend hours just thinking about how to lay out the assignment, and usually they take me 3-5 hours to produce.


I bet you have done thousands of appraisals in your time. And it still takes you several hours to think about how to lay them out? Give me a break.


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#18 @ 07-26-01 , 11:14 AM


Rockdoc:

Well, here you go again. Only with the great Rockdoc’s report will an insurance company settle your claim. Hogwash. If a simple one page appraisal won’t do the job, the problem is not with the appraisal, but with the bad choice of insurance companies you have made. Some insurance companies won’t settle a claim with an appraisal written by God himself. Doesn’t mean the appraisal is bad, just the insurance company sucks.

By the way, since you claim to be an expert in the law, I wonder why there is no J.D. after your name?


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Is an independent appraisal really worth it?
Quote this post and reply to it Post#19 @ 07-26-01 , 12:54 PM


I agree with Rocdoc
"REAL INDEPENDENT APPRAISERS work for the client, not the seller."
Am I missing something here? Read the original question. The idea is to prevent the average consumer (who, by the way, in case everyone's forgeting, is not expected to know if a diamond's what it is represented to be) from being taken. Some people go to specialists for opinions on different things, the better the specialist the more thorough the analysis. One of an independent appraiser's jobs is to make sure that the item being appraised is worth buying in the first place. If it isn't why are we even talking about insuring it? If you're going back to the jeweler that sold you an item and you want to return it because it's not what it was represented as being, wouldn't you want the most authoritative documentation you could get given by an expert? The least amount of questions left unanswered, the better off you're going to be.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#20 @ 07-26-01 , 01:07 PM


"REAL INDEPENDENT APPRAISERS work for the client, not the seller."

I'd like to elaborate a little here. The Independent Appraiser is an advocate of neither the client nor the seller but rather an advocate of the appraisal itself. Even though the seller may be accused of over inflating the value of a sold item, I have had clients request a value either directly or through innuendo. (I.e. "I really need this item to be worth $x,xxx.xx. Can't you see how valuable it is...)

So to appraise ethically and professionally, the independent appraiser needs to focus on the assignment at hand, and not the financial needs of a buyer or seller. An appraiser is there to analyze, research, document and support an opinion of value within the appropriate context (market, intended use etc.)

This is why I am leery of the: off the cuff, "this is what I would sell it for" one page appraisal. Typically these appraisals are not based on market research, but rather opinions confined to a smaller arena (their own store). I find that insurance companies will accept nearly any "appraisal", but the well-prepared ones help the most in the event of processing a claim.


[Edited by ArthurMan on 08-03-01 at 09:43 PM]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#21 @ 07-26-01 , 02:05 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by ArthurMan

professionally, the independent appraiser needs to focus on the assignment at hand, and not the financial needs of a buyer or seller. An appraiser is there to analyze, research, document and support an opinion of value within the appropriate context (market, intended use etc.)

[Edited by ArthurMan on 07-26-01 at 01:08 PM] [/B]


My question is: Is it appropriate practice for the independent appraiser, while appraising a diamond on behalf of a buyer (for argument's sake, let's say it is a branded hearts and arrows stone), to recommend another diamond either by brand name or by alternative seller?

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#22 @ 07-26-01 , 02:40 PM


This is getting interesting.

Rock, I truly believe you do your work with the highest ethical and technical manner. But..

Think again. "gemological consultant" Is it same as "independent appraiser"?
If my customer sends a stone for you and you say to him "Buy a better stone from company x instead" is it ok?

S





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Independent Appraisers
Quote this post and reply to it Post#23 @ 07-26-01 , 03:26 PM


I agree with Rockdoc. If there's something wrong with a stone, it's our responsibility to inform the client - that's what they're paying us for. If I'm being paid to appraise a stone then I appraise the stone. If I'm being paid to evaluate a stone and give an opinion then that's what I do. As far as the question about it being appropriate to recommend another diamond or another dealer, if there's nothing wrong with the item I'm evaluating or appraising, then why would I want to get into a discussion that has nothing to do with my report and can only come back to haunt me? If I recommend another dealer, does it appear that I'm remaining independent and unbiased? Probably not.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#24 @ 07-26-01 , 03:44 PM


Quote Rockdoc:

“That would depend on the discussion between the gemologist/appraiser/consultant and the client. If the client asks or wants to know, the person working for the client, in advising him, should answer the client's questions honestly and appropriately.

That is what the client is paying for.

The client is paying for independent opinion, analysis or advice. Of couse those who are selling don't want this information provided, and the ONLY way to serve the client ethically, is to always provide the truth and facts to the best of your ability and knowledge.

Just like consumers get second opinions from doctors, they may also elect to do the same with gemological consultants. “


I absolutely disagree with this statement. The consumer should be making the purchasing decision, not the appraiser. When you go offering your “professional” opinion about whether to purchase a stone or not, you have left the consumer with no choice at all. The consumer believes in your opinion (why else would they be paying for it). By telling them to look elsewhere, what else could you expect the outcome to be? An appraiser, in my opinion, should simply state that a stone is or is not what it has been represented to be (i.e. the 4c’s), and its estimated value. Nothing more. For example:

This stone is a 1.0 carat, H, VS1, AGS ideal cut with $XXXX.XX estimated value.

From this info alone, the consumer should be able to decide whether or not to purchase the stone. They should not be subjected to someone’s opinion about what they should or should not do. Where they may find a “better deal” or “better stone” is none of the appraiser’s business. The consumer has picked a diamond. Tell them if it is what it has been represented to be and give them a value. Then let them make the choice. Anything else is garbage. Not fact, opinion. And this is where independence of the appraiser disappears. No wonder some dealers have decided to be part of your "list". You don't give them much choice.

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Independent Appraisers
Quote this post and reply to it Post#25 @ 07-26-01 , 04:03 PM


WOW Catfish,
Your doctor has his work cut out for him. You probably don't listen to him either. But I guess your the consumer and he's the proctologist.

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