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| HOME : FORUM : EDUCATION : JEWELRY : Appraisal & Insurance : Edwardian Ring Less than expected |
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Post#1 @
09-16-04
, 08:35 PM
Hello, I am hoping for a few opinions from people who have experience with older cut diamonds. Here is my story.... My husband and I recently purchased an Edwardian Style Platinum engagement ring from a local antique dealer. When we purchased it, we were told that the ring held an approx 1.25 old-cut (she thought mine-cut)center stone, with decent color and clarity. We paid $4000 even for it. I took it to an appraiser, and the actual score is that it is a 1.69 carat European cut stone, M color, I2 clarity (that's correct, not SI, not even SI2 -- but I2). The platinum band it turns out is not in great shape, it shows wear from the previous owner and the prongs will need to be touched up soon so the stone doesn't fall out. It appraised for $3875. Now this is only a difference of $125 from what we paid, but while we were in the shop all of the people working there kept oohing and ahhing and everyone agreed that it should surely appraise for at least $7000. The person we bought it from told us that if we had it appraised and were not satisfied, we could have all our money back. But we're at odds with our emotional reaction to the appraisal. It seems that we could be glad that we paid only slightly more than it's worth, especially since the stone is much larger than we thought. We can't seem to help feeling a little taken though, and I thought maybe some of you would have an opinion on the matter? Thank you very much! |
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Post#2 @
09-16-04
, 09:22 PM
This is truly a tough one. First, you must remember it truly matters what you think about the whole purchase from beginning to end and not what everyone else does. That is most important! If it were me, I would not have liked the fact that I was told one thing prior to the purchase and after the fact so many things were different. I would have a bad feeling about the place I bought it from and I would not trust them much at all from there on out. I do not feel I could ever buy from them again...obviously they do not know the pieces they are selling. Most important, the piece may have been different from what you were initially told, but how do you feel about it now? Do you love it? Are you happy when it is worn? Do you have good feelings about it? Do you feel taken? Will this transaction and what you went through always stay in your mind? Also, how much will it cost you to get the ring restored in the best shape that it needs to be, so you can feel comfortable about the piece? Factor that in as well. It truly depends on a lot of your answers to those questions as to what you should do. As an outsider, I feel bad for you and I almost say return it, BUT...if you are happy and it can be fixed with minimal cost and if you are ok with the diamond quality...keep it and love it. Just make sure in your mind you won't look at it and regret anything. That is how I decide on my purchases...I don't want to have any regrets or doubts...if I will, I won't buy it or I will return it. Good Luck Can you post a picture? |
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Post#3 @
09-16-04
, 09:41 PM
Hi, Glasskisses..Welcome to DT! Hopefully, some experts will weigh in here...but I can throw in my very amateur two cents.  Estate and antique jewelry is really dicey to to appraise...it's so subjective. A different appraiser might come up with an entirely different figure. Was your appraiser an antique specialist? If I were you I wouldn't get too hung up on the "paper" and "numbers". They mean much much less in a beautiful antique piece than they would in an unmounted, graded stone. I'd say: continue to love your unique treasure, and don't worry about the "appraisal". JMO widget PS: Can you post a picture of it? We'd love to see it! (Especially the antique freaks who haunt the antique thread...) |
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Thank you! and Pics
Post#4 @
09-16-04
, 11:24 PM
Thank you all for your input thus far... The appraiser has very high credentials, so I have complete faith that he did an honest and accurate appraisal. My husband and I keep talking and talking, and he brought up some of the same points you have, mainly that he wants me to look down at my finger and feel happy. Maybe I don't know enough about diamonds, but when I do look at it I can't help but think "Oooooo, pretty". We do feel like it maybe in our best interest to go ahead and contact the seller, and let her know what the appraisal states, and kind of leave it open-ended at first to see if she offers any sort of compensation, or just to see what she might say.... I've also included some amateur shots of the ring for those who are curious. Thanks again! Different points of view bring up different ideas in our heads, and I know it's important to feel comfortable with our final decision. |
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Post#5 @
09-17-04
, 12:09 AM
OOOOOOO, PRETTY!! I think it's lovely. (Of course, I'm very partial to antique jewelry!) Just for fun, I went over to www.faycullen.com to see how they're pricing comparable antique pieces. I found one ring, 1.51ct I, i-1 for $4481, and another, 1.01ct J, si-1, for $5200. (The "suggested retail" prices for these items were $6900, and $8000, respectively.) To me, these figures are pretty much in the same ballpark as your ring...and I think yours is prettier! widget |
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Faycullen
Post#6 @
09-17-04
, 12:21 AM
Thank you Widget! I have spent so much time looking at rings, sometimes I think I would be happy with some tinfoil wrapped around my finger I have spent quite a bit of time prior to the purchase and even today at faycullen.com I also tried to find comparable pieces to make myself feel better. It seems like really we didn't do such a horrible job with our purchase, so much as that we just felt at the time that we were getting a "deal" and we really weren't. We just got pretty much what we paid for. Which I suppose isn't a bad thing, unless it really is true that an appraisal should be some % higher than what you pay, so that you really can replace the piece with something similar. That's one of my fears... that if it were to be stolen, we wouldn't get enough money to get something the same size, era, etc. That and when I look at faycullen's suggested retail, I wonder who that price applies to? Is that an appraisal price? or is that some inflated number to make people think that they are getting a "deal"? |
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Post#7 @
09-17-04
, 01:17 AM
What did the antique dealer orignally say the specs were on the diamond? |
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Post#8 @
09-17-04
, 01:29 AM
When we first contacted the dealer about the ring via email, I asked for all the specs -- color, clarity, etc. She told us that it costs them too much to get appraisals on all their jewelry, so she didn't have any of that info, and basically when we got there to look at the ring, all we had were several opinions, and our own eyes. We knew we were taking a risk that way, but because she offered all our money-back if we were not satisfied, we were willing to get it appraised ourselves. There were 3 people there who all seemed to have a lot of experience with antique jewelry. The little tag on the ring said 1.25C, and it is bigger at 1.69C. The owner said it was probably a late 1800s mine-cut and it turns out to be 1920s European, so I really just don't think they have as much knowledge as they think they do. |
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Post#9 @
09-17-04
, 02:11 AM
You could try to get some of your money back. Very pretty ring. But if it were me, and it was bought on a credit card, I'd be inclined to return to the store and negotiate a lower price or make them take the ring back. They sold it to you as wearable and it isn't. Even if they don't get pieces appraised, they should at least have a jeweler examine the structural integrity or whatever it's called in the jewelry business. My guess is that dealer got a verbal appraisal from somebody and then purposely told you the inflated value to wring appraised value out of you. Some people are really good at doing that without shame. I see they called in their "ooh and aah" team, too. I've had that experience. They try to sell for full retail or full appraised value, using whatever it takes to convince you to pay it.  It would bother me that the appraisal is lower than the purchase price right off the bat, plus repairs are needed for the ring to be usable. How much will the repairs cost and will the ring appraise any higher after repaired? (Appraisals are "as-is", right? I never thought to ask if "improvements" or repairs can increase value of antique jewelry.) I carry around a stackable 3-lens 5x/10x/20x loupe (okay, maybe it's not a loupe but it's a magnifier and it works). It really lets me see what's in there, plus clearly shows chips and most cracks. |
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Post#10 @
09-17-04
, 07:52 AM
I love Fay Cullen's jewelry, but I have always found her to be a bit expensive. |
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Post#11 @
09-17-04
, 11:06 AM
The ring looks beautiful in the picture. On the positive it is bigger than it was stated...but on the negative..what would really bother me is that it is 2 clarity grades below what was stated. Does that bother you? I read something that states when you purchase a diamond it can be no more/less than 1 clarity grade off. You have every right to get your money back if that is the route you want to take. Please keep us posted as what you will do. ~Ronda |
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Post#12 @
09-17-04
, 04:57 PM
deleted for a double post blurp.
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Post#13 @
09-17-04
, 04:58 PM
Was the diamond appraised in the setting or taken out? It is not always possible to do an accurate appraisal with the stone set because: 1. you can't get an accurate weight, it would be estimated using a formula which could be off. 2. you can't get an accurate clarity in case something is hidden underneath a prong 3. you can't get an accurate color grade because the stone must be graded loose upside down under magnification next to color comparison stones. Also does the appraiser sell jewelry or are they indpendent? I find many times if they sell jewelry they get a little jealous from not making the sale themselves so they tend to downgrade a product. Just from the pictures, I can't see obvious inclusions that an I1-I2 might show. Credentials can mean than someone has taken the courses but doesn't always mean that they are honest. |
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Post#14 @
09-17-04
, 06:15 PM
Sounds like the antique dealer does not have qualified gemological training and just moves product based on info they are given. If you really are not happy with how things have transpired take them up on their offer and get your money back or maybe they are willing to negotiate.....? 
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Post#15 @
09-18-04
, 01:01 AM
Thanks webgal. |
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Post#16 @
09-18-04
, 02:57 AM
We've sent the dealer an email explaining our dilemma, along with a copy of the appraisal. Now we're just waiting to hear back from her.
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Post#17 @
09-18-04
, 03:02 PM
glasskisses, Good luck with what you decide to do. In the pic, it's hard to get a good look at the diamond based on the angle but I love both views of the setting and from what I can see of that, it's gorgeous.
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Antique Dealer Response
Post#18 @
09-20-04
, 01:54 AM
Hello to any and all who have tuned in to see what has transpired... We received a response to our email. The seller was very apologetic, and has given us two options, either a full refund, or $550 as a settlement. We are thinking very hard about this. That would put our payment of the ring at $3450 -- $425 less than the appraised value. This does make us feel better. We've just been wondering now if we would be better off investing in a better quality small stone. I have attached a picture of the appraisal wording so that you have an even better idea of the quality, and maybe someone has a few additional words of wisdom for us. Thank you!!! |
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Post#19 @
09-20-04
, 02:47 AM
Boy, oh boy...this is a tough one... what a shame that you're in such a quandry!  I imagine some of the diamond experts might weigh in here, having seen your appraiser's plotting of the stone. To me, an antique buff, a stone's "imperfections" (as long as it is still pretty to the eye) add to the charm of these old pieces...To me, comparing a smaller, graded diamond in a modern setting to a vintage deco ring with an "off" center stone is like comparing apples to oranges! I will say that the comments on the appraisal regarding the ring's condition are a little disturbing. Severe wear to prongs, shank and sides doesn't sound good. Can you see the wear he refers to? I guess if I were you, I'd return the ring for a full refund, and then go full blast looking for an antique piece that I could love as much as this one. I'd TELEPHONE (not email) the people at www.nelsonrarities.com to see if they have anything I might like. If I couldn't find anything I like better, I'd go back, buy back this beautiful ring at its reduced price, and then treasure it forever! Not much help, am I?...I'm sorry! Best wishes, and good luck. widget |
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Post#20 @
09-20-04
, 09:36 AM
glasskisses, I am currently in a similar situation in which the ring I purchased was not as described when purchased. The individual has agreed to find me a stone that matches the appraisal he gave us, or a full refund. As much as I think the original stone is lovely, it is not what I would have chosen had I known the facts before purchase. I received some excellent advise when I brought this to our DTers. It's all about looking at the stone down the road and will I be happy with what I see, or will it forever be "tainted". In your situation, you have a lovely antique piece, but from the sound of things will need a lot of repair as well as the clairty now being as indicated at purchase. You were fortunate that the appraisal price was close to your purchase price. I have to agree with Widget, sounds like good advice to me. Good Luck with whatever you both decide to do. I think you must be able to look at your ring with only enjoyment and appreciation for the lovely on your finger. |
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Post#21 @
09-21-04
, 06:07 PM
Thoughts of the day.... I've been taking the ring off and examining it over and over again. I think I can see some of the inclusions now, and I did notice a tiny chip on one of the facets. I have leaning more and more towards keeping it though. I keep asking myself, "would you expect something 80 years old to be in perfect condition?" and I wouldn't... I also kind of like the idea that another person wore this ring --hopefully in love-- for a very long time. The band is worn in places, no doubt about that. It looks like she worn another band up next to the ring, possibly 2 bands (one of each side -- or else she just turned the ring over periodically) because the side of the basket shows rubbing wear. Also the actual band where it lays on the inside of the finger (opposite the setting) is much thinner than the rest of the band. Does anyone know if it's a very hard thing to have that part thickened up and reinforced? I looked at prices of modern cut diamonds about the same size, color, and clarity -- and I realize that they are cut with mathematical precision to make them sparkle like mad, but they're more expensive... and they don't have any the story that an antique does. I feel the romantic in me wanting to believe that this ring had a wonderful life before it came to me. I just want the story to keep going without the ring falling apart. |
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Post#22 @
09-21-04
, 10:26 PM
Hi, Glasskisses... You've just expressed all my feelings and sentiments regarding antique pieces. They are so special and unique...and yours is so lovely.... Whenever I've had work done on one of mine, I've taken it to one of two ESTATE JEWELERS I know who each work with benchmen highly experienced working on old pieces. I noticed in your first post that you bought (if you decide to keep it) the ring from "a local antique dealer". I wonder if you'd be better off sending it off to an antique JEWELER to have the work done... I have an old ring (Webgal's fav) that I wanted dramatically re-sized down to a pinky ring. The local jeweler said "no way, can't be done". Later I took it to an antique jeweler and the job was done perfectly. I imagine some "rebuilding" of the shank was involved. I think a lot of antique jewelers send out their merchandise for refurbishing and repairs BEFORE they offer them for sale. (This is another reason I'm mad  at your guy.)Sorry I've babbled on so...I hope this helps. I know, it's your prerogative to change your mind daily, but I'm rooting in favor of your keeping that treasure! Best wishes, widget |
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Post#23 @
09-22-04
, 11:03 AM
Hey Glasskisses, As I mentioned before I love the old stuff and have a few of the older platinum pieces. One is so loved and well worn, my jeweler told me that it is time for it to be placed under glass as it keeps popping stones. I understand, and experts please correct me if I'm wrong as this was all told to me by a jeweler, that platinum by virtue of it's ability to "flex" to some small degree, makes it a wonderful setting material. However, it is more difficult to work with as it must be welded not soldered. I was told that over time, if you are going to wear an older piece on a daily basis, it is important that the setting be in good shape, or it will be too flexible. This can cause a loss of stones, especially in the older piercework type pieces. I was told it gets very costly to try and repair old platinum. Last piece I had in I was told, having had the 8th small stone replaced, perhaps it was time to make an identical setting. Just a thought. |
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Decision!
Post#24 @
09-23-04
, 05:08 PM
Well, after all the deliberating, I've decided to keep the ring. The seller actually offered another $150 -- so that brings the refund to $700, and purchase price to $3300 -- which makes me feel much better as far as the financial aspect goes. Now I just need to see about securing that diamond in place a bit better. Thank you all for your awesome input. It helped a lot just to air my thoughts and see what other people had to say on the matter. Wishing you all the best!
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All that matters is a win-win situation. I am glad it worked out. It really sounds like you have your heart set on the ring...and I can see why. You can't replace the romance. It is very pretty. ~Ronda |
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