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Old bwilson
 
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Quote this post and reply to it Post#1 @ 02-03-01 , 07:01 PM


My Fiancee and I have been looking at >2.0 CT diamonds. We have found one with an E.G.L grading that is VS1, G color, Excellent Ideal Cut, moderate flourescence. The inclusion pattern is a circle of tiny dots plotted from the top view but located outside the table. The first time we saw the stone under microscope, we saw the pattern from behind but not on top. The second time we could not see it at all..as in no inclusions viewable under microscope. In addition, I asked to check the stone under black light to see the amount of fluorescence and also went into bright sunlight. Under black light the diamond turned yellow with a few blue spots. I never saw a diamond turn yellow!!! Should I be concerned?? Otherwise the stone is beautiful.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Bonnie

Diamond Search:

Carat:  to  Color:  to  Clarity:  to  


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#2 @ 02-03-01 , 07:39 PM


Bonnie-

Yellow fluorescence is considered undesirable in diamonds.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#3 @ 02-03-01 , 08:54 PM


Is yellow fluorescence more undesireable than blue?? Also, do Moissanite or CZ stones have any fluorescent properties??

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#4 @ 02-03-01 , 10:49 PM


Extremely strong is undesirable in any color.

In the marketplace blue is the least undesirable color.



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Quote this post and reply to it Post#5 @ 02-04-01 , 12:47 AM


Bonnie

Since you are spending quite a chunk of change on this purchase, you need to hang out here and ask more questions!

Here are a couple to discuss with your jeweler:

Has he ever heard of DiamondTalk?


EGL certs are frowned upon here - many would not consider a stone unless it is graded by GIA or AGS. Ask if your dealer is willing to get it graded by GIA.

Find out what "excellent ideal cut" means. It may be neither "excellent" nor "ideal".

Ask to see a "sarin" report for the stone, it will give you most of the pertinent data regarding the stone's geometry.

There are many many stones >2 ct to consider, so don't get caught thinking that they are rare and you have to "settle" for what's available. I almost fell into that trap.

Have fun looking. Good luck.

R/A

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#6 @ 02-04-01 , 11:23 AM


E.G.L. Cert comments section reads as follows "Excellent Ideal Cut" - the quality of the cut of this diamond achieves excellence in symmetry and proprtion, thus obtaining the optimal dispersion of light and brilliance.

Stats are as follows:

2.11 Cts, Depth 60.5%. Table Width 57%, Girdle Medium/faceted, Polish Excellent, Symmetry-Excellent, VS1, G color, Moderate Fluorescence.

Dealer asking $4,200 under rap sheet pricing or $19,800.....ANY FEEDBACK APPRECIATED

Bonnie

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#7 @ 02-04-01 , 05:14 PM


You will need the crown and pavilion angles to filter the diamond before actual observation.

Read RockDoc's Website.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#8 @ 02-04-01 , 06:23 PM


Hello Wink,
good to have more professionalson this board.

your quote

__
I have been in the diamond business since 1975 and I think that entirely toooooooo much attention is being paid to certificates and information that means nothing to the average person.

_----

Have any idea why certificates contain only useless information?

Your quote
__

However, for a nice but not investment quality stone, you may be happy with an EGL LA cert,
----

Define "investment quality", please.
S


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#9 @ 02-04-01 , 09:19 PM


HERE IS THE SCOOP ON THE DIAMOND:

Pavilion Depth: 43%
Crown Height; 15%

Sorry I left this info out in my last description of the diamond...Also, I am not worried about the flourescence since it is beautiful in bright sunlight. I never thought it could turn yellow under black light, and thought it might be a fake. I am too ignorant to know if a fake has fluorescence. Should I pay to have a GIA cert done??

Thanks,

Bonnie

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#10 @ 02-04-01 , 09:32 PM


Wink-

Its great to have folks of your caliber on this forum.

-----Originally posted by jbacon:
You will need the crown and pavilion angles to filter the diamond before actual observation.

By this I meant just what you said.... Don't rely on the numbers alone. One must L@@K at the diamond. The consumers are often looking for a shortcut to diamond buying.

Thanks for pitching in on helping these consumers. Their demand for knowledge is insatiable.

JoeB

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#11 @ 02-04-01 , 09:33 PM




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Quote this post and reply to it Post#12 @ 02-04-01 , 10:47 PM


Wink--Welcome to the forum


I agree with you on most of what you said, but I think that one problem is that the average consumer simply hasn't seen enough really well cut diamonds to be able to pick the good from the bad.

I mean, look at the HUGE numbers of people who think that the stones at mall stores "sing." When these stones are way overpriced, and lower quality.

While Tollkowsky is a good place to start, I personally think that his 'ideal' is flawed. We have seen a number of non-Tollkowsky stones that outperform the ideals.

Fred Cuellar is a quack. I'm glad we can all agree on that
.

I think, though, that cuts like the Eightstar and Hearts and Arrows, and AGS000 really bring diamond cut to a higher level. When you compare the sparkle of an Eightstar to a nonideal, the difference will blow you away. I compared Eightstars and H&As to Lazare Kaplan ideals and the LKs looked dull in comparison. The problem is that these higher end cuts are not as common, so the consumer must look harder to find them.

It is true that a non-ideal cut can perform like a superideal. However I think that it's essential that consumers educate themselves as much as possible, and look at stones under intstruments other than just a scope. The firescope and brilliancescope for example can provide additional information for a consumer who does not have a trained pair of eyes.

As far as this stone is concerned, I think this EGL "excellent ideal" whatever whatever is bunk. For a few hundred dollars, this stone could be sent to AGS and get a REAL cut grade, and IMO would be well worth the time and money. At the very least, I'd send it to GIA to make sure the color and clarity are graded properly.

While I agree that consumers should use their eyes to judge, I think it's equally essential to look at some of the best stones available. Picking the best of a bad lot does not mean you're going to get a beautiful diamond.

Shelby


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#13 @ 02-04-01 , 11:08 PM


Wink

The consumer has the right to know everything the dealer does about the stone before making a decision to buy it. Many of the dealers I have been to around town hold their "cut" cards close to the vest. Why? I can only guess that they want to have the upper hand. If I am not smart enough to "ask the right questions" as one dealer put it so bluntly here on DT, I will certainly overpay.

I will grant you that not all consumers are interested in the gorey details of diamond cuts and grading, but most of the dealers I've been to err on the side of holding back information rather than laying it all on the table. Even the better vendors in town don't bring the certs out to show with the stones and will explain the AGA cut grading scale (the one THEY used to buy the diamond) only when pressed. To say that I as a consumer don't need to know the cut details is the height of arrogance.

You and I both know that most consumers cannot disinguish the finer aspects of cut quality by eye. If the consumer is denied the angles and per cents and is not an experienced visual diamond grader, his only fallback position is to rely on the vendor, and the vendor's position is most certainly biased. The magnitude of the bias is as difficult for the consumer to discern as is D to E color.

As for Bonnie, it seems that she does indeed have an ideally cut stone at a ncie price. Regarding EGL, my lack of experience dictates that I can not comment except to say that the best stones seem to come with GIA or AGS certs. The fact that EGL puts a sales pitch in the comments on the cert (optimal dispersion and brilliance - what???) seems inappropriate to me. There are lots of fish in the sea; I would stay away from this grouper unless the vendor volunteered to get another cert. Bonnie should not take my word (or anyone else's for that matter) but rather should let her eyes and heart and wallet drive her decision.

R/A

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#14 @ 02-05-01 , 04:36 AM


Hello Wink,
When you talk about investment quality are you also saying diamonds can be seen as investments? and better colour and clarity are better investments to lesser grades?
You did gave me already the ansver where you defined investment quality, now I am asking why this quality is called investment quality.
your quote
---
in the late 70's there was a period of time when people went crazy buying diamonds for investments. A one carat D-IF went from around 4k in the early 70's to $65,000 between dealers at the "club" in New York in February of 1980, only to crash back down to under 10K by summer of 1980.

Investment quality came to mean D-F IF to VS1, usually well cut but not necessarily ideal cut
---


Does this justify you to use the term "investment quality" AD 2001

S

[Edited by Sibelius on 02-05-2001.]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#15 @ 02-05-01 , 04:54 AM


Wink,
Look at the Rapaport Vol 24 no 1 (January 5, 2001) page 16.

there is a chart named Long Term Price Trends

What does it tell you about K-Si quality as investment? To me is shows the lessesr the quality the better the investment. How do you interept that chart?
S

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#16 @ 02-05-01 , 12:30 PM


bwilson,
You quoted a percentage back of rap for the above listed stone.
Are you aware that the rap prices are for well cut accurately graded diamonds?
The last EGL that I had in was suppose to be a SI2 H and it was really I1 J( light brown) if it were graded by GIA. Since that time, I haven't wasted any more postage getting any in. That was 3 grades different and a significant price difference. To know if you have a good deal, you need to know if the stone would grade out by GIA or AGS the same grade.


Jan


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For those that want to know the TRUTH about diamonds, just ask me.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#17 @ 02-05-01 , 03:43 PM


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wink:
[

However, for a nice but not investment quality stone,

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


so investment quality is just another idiom in Diamond Jargon? like It's raining cats and dogs when it is really just raining.

I think this a bit dangerous way to speak to customer to describe a stone. He might get the idea of the investment, don't you think?
S


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#18 @ 02-05-01 , 05:01 PM


Hi Wink,
Thanks for the long post. It sounds as though you work very similar to the other dealers on this board. Everyone has stories of stones coming in that were supposed to be F Si2 and were really something else.

I think that Sibelius is objecting to the term "investment quality" because, as you pointed out, for the average consumer a diamond is really not an investment. The term 'investment' means an outlay of money for income or profit, and the fact is, when a consumer like myself buys a diamond, I will not be able to make a profit on it.

I think there is still a vast misconception among the general public that diamonds are a good investment. And so using the term 'investment quality' IMO is dangerous because it implies and sustains this misbelief.

Shelby

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#19 @ 02-05-01 , 05:08 PM


Thank you Shelby,
Whenever you need help in Finnish, give me a call

S

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#20 @ 02-05-01 , 09:24 PM


RA,

They hold the "cut card" because of several reasons.
1. They are playing a pricing game
2. They don't know anything about cut so they can explain it
3. They think explaining cut is to detailed and waste to much time
4. etc, etc........

------------------
StevL
www.demsjewelers.com
www.eightstar.com




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Quote this post and reply to it Post#21 @ 02-06-01 , 12:43 AM


Wink,
Thanks for your long and thoughtful posts. It's great to have another intelligent dealer on here.

This board is unique in that it's a complete mix of dealers (brick and mortar, online, and brick and click), cutters, appraisers, consumers, and everyone in between. It's always good to get more opinions in the fray.

Personally, I'd have to object to the term 'important' diamonds, simply because it implies that other diamonds are less important. Why not just call a spade a spade and say "expensive" diamonds (or 'high profit' diamonds, or 'please buy one of these' diamonds)
.

From the dealer perspective, I can see how it would not be very cost effective to get certs on 25 pointers. And I think this approach works just fine when you're dealing with face to face customers in a brick and mortar shop.

However, when you say "Trust me," I say "Run Forrest, Run!"
It's just that there's SO MANY scam artists out there. And please, I'm not trying to say that you're one. I get the mental image of a guy with a big grin, displaying a gold capped front tooth with, what is that? An Eightstar imbedded into it? Wow!


Seriously though, on the Internet, trust is one of the primary factors of any sale. So on the web it's a lot harder to say 'trust me.' The reason why people want certs, even on small stones, is because it's one extra safety net in this trust thing--one more 'am I really getting what I'm paying for?'

Fred Q. tells people to trust him, and then he invents these self-serving 'theories' and publishes a bestseller. And then there's the Blane Company--"You've got a friend in the diamond business!" Hey--with friends like that, who needs a messy divorce and child support payments?

I'm lucky in that I'm getting married later than a lot of women (or as my mother says "I thought it would NEVER happen!")--at a time when both my fiance and I can afford to get the size and quality diamond I really want. But a lot of other couples really can't afford a big stone. And a lot of people would rather have a 25 point AGS000 than a 1 carat FMC, if that's what their budget allows. Anyway, for most people, a diamond of any size is a large, important purchase. I can tell you from experience that consumers hate to be blown off by retailers because they're only spending 2k. Not to mention that a diamond us such an emotional experience.

Anyway, I kind of lost track of what I was saying here, so I'll just sign off


Shelby



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Quote this post and reply to it Post#22 @ 02-06-01 , 06:13 PM


Wink,
FMC( Fried Monkey Crap) you got it right!

Exellent!

Good to have you here
S

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#23 @ 02-06-01 , 06:25 PM


Wink,
I was saying that the industry in general tends to treat the smaller diamond buyer as less important--not you in particular .

Building a relationship with a jeweler is one of the biggest advantages of brick and mortar stores and why, I think, they will never entirely go away.

I love the Internet quote. I think I'll use that sometime .
Shelby

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Thank Iceman
Quote this post and reply to it Post#24 @ 02-06-01 , 06:55 PM


No Pain wink

FMC is originally presented by The Great One (Iceman), I think.
S

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