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Old msuc5vette
 
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EGL USA vs. GIA
Quote this post and reply to it Post#1 @ 11-04-03 , 09:11 PM


I am comparing two stones, one is a GIA and the other is an EGL USA.

The clarity is the same, but the EGL has a color rating of an F, and the GIA a color rating of a D. I can't see inclusing w/o a 10x lupe on either, even with the 10x I have a lot of trouble finding anything.

I can see a slight color difference if I look at both side by side, but I can't see a difference when they are set on top the setting.

The GIA diamond is a 1.03, the EGL is a 1.27, they are 4500 and 4800 respectively. The GIA has a table of 55%, and depth of 64.4%

I entered the specs off the cert sheet for the EGL

I am a little concerned about the cert being EGL USA, I have been told that GIA is the only way to go, but I have also been told the EGL USA is very good, and not anything to worry about like other EGL. The EGL was certified 10/21/2003, the GIA was certified 5/23/2000 number 75456502
  • Lab: EGL USA
  • Shape: Oval
  • Carat: 1.27
  • Color: F
  • Clarity: SI1
  • Seller's Asking Price:4800
  • Certificate Number: 74877202D
  • Measurements: 8.84x6.11x3.59
  • Depth: 58.8
  • Table Percent: 58
  • Crown Height: 13.9
  • Pavillion: 41%
  • Girdle: Medium -Thick,
  • Culet: None,
  • Polish: Very Good
  • Symmetry: Good to Very Good
  • Fluorescence: None
The above form was filled out here

Last edited by msuc5vette : 11-04-03 at 09:14 PM.
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Quote this post and reply to it Post#2 @ 11-05-03 , 07:53 AM


TTT, please offer any suggestions, this is my first diamond purchase, I don't want to make a 5K mistake.

I have searched the forum and found conflicting opinions.

It appears that EGL USA may have a tendency to over grade on color, on this particular stone I would be shocked if the clarity was off.

Has anyone seen anything off on an EGL USA report besides color and possibly clarity? A big part for me are the dimensions and ratios.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#3 @ 11-05-03 , 12:15 PM


The EGL certs are about one step away from an IGI cert as far as gemological expertise and reliability. The EGL is trying to compete with the IGI for the pre-sale certificate market, that has these folks catering to the sellers to help make the sale, rather than sticking to strict gemological protocol and procedure.

I would not rely on any EGL cert when making a diamond purchase.

Stick to the GIA, AGS, or the HRD.

Robert James FGA, GG

Last edited by YourGemologist : 11-05-03 at 12:17 PM.
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Quote this post and reply to it Post#4 @ 11-05-03 , 01:30 PM


Your best bet for peace of mind
and the knowledge that you are getting an accurate color/clarity grade is either GIA or AGS. After that examine the Cut dimensions of the stone and
arrange to see the diamond, if at all possible. If you are interested in an EGL, corroborate their report by having the stone evaluated by an "Independent"
Appraiser.

Barry

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#5 @ 11-06-03 , 04:09 PM


Robert is correct in that you should assume that EGL color and clarity can be off by one grade.
Within the trade it is also assumed that EGL color and clarity will not be off by more than one grade. For stones that are securely in the middle of any grade EGL and GIA color or clarity might be the same. In other words I would assume that EGL is always off by 1/2 grade. In evaluating the diamond I would also consider the reputation of the seller. If a good seller uses EGL then he should be prepared to admit that the cert is probably one grade higher than GIA and should price the stone accordingly.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#6 @ 11-09-03 , 04:51 PM


The seller is reputable, my grandparents and many family friends have been buying from this store for many years.

I asked the sales person about his experience with the two cert companies, naturally he told me he has had good experience with both. He showd me a cert from each company that they had sent the same diamond to. They came back identical except for the measurements were off by +/- .01 on some of the specs.

I have looked at both diamonds listed extensively, next to eachother I can see the difference in color, but in the setting I can't. I had him pull out a 1ct G color from GIA, next to eachother the G GIA looked more yellow at some angles than the F EGL, but at other angles they looked the same.

How can I confirm the color myself?

I'm assuming I really can't, but w/o buying the diamond I'm not sure how I can have an independant evaluate it.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#7 @ 11-09-03 , 05:34 PM


Ive been shopping around alot and looked at EGL, GIA and AGS certs. EGL is not bad, if they were they would go out of business. Yes they may be one color or clarity off, but so far putting the two side by side, the EGL diamonds i have looked at were right on in their grading, These were EGL isreal certs. And its not like EGL and GIA graded diamond are the same price. a EGL graded diamond seems to be about 1000 or more cheaper compared to the same grade in GIA. So it quite possible you may find an accurately graded EGl and get it way cheaper then GIA.
I dont think you should discount EGL, just make sure you look at it and it is graded correctly.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#8 @ 11-09-03 , 11:06 PM


Since this is a situation that you have been able to compare stones side by side, and both are absolutely eye clean.

And assuming that the jeweler would honor a lifetime tradein on either.

The most important consideration is the quality of cut.

Nobody can tell you from the numbers which of these diamonds is going to be more beautiful.

This can only be determined in fancy cut diamonds by looking at and comparing the diamonds.

The better cut stone will be more brilliant ,sparkly and have less dark or dead areas (bow tie)

Forget the numbers and the labs, go back and compare the two side by side in several lighting conditions including natural light and choose the brighter more lively diamond.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#9 @ 11-10-03 , 12:05 AM


first and foremost, by the diamond, NOT the "cert". do NOT assume that x lab is always off by x amount, and that Y lab is always correct. it simply is not true. that incorrect assumption can be a costly one.

as a consumer, it makes less difference which lab is most often correct. be more interested in what is the correct grading of the diamond YOU are buying! either lab x or y could be correct in on your diamond, and either lab could be wrong.

so, bottom line, buy the diamond first, not the paper. the paper can be supportive if it is correct, and either lab may serve that purpose in the specific case of your diamond. but that is secondary to getting the diamond that fits your needs, and that is priced competitively based on its actual qualities. the paper game is for the trade. don't get caught in someone else's game; you'll end up at a disadvantage.

btw, many of the people who advise about labs may have very little actual experience comparing them, and may just be repeating what they hear from others. this can have a snowball effect that exaggerates the reality.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#10 @ 11-10-03 , 09:58 AM


OK- first I didn't read all the posts, so sorry if I'm going off here..but I HATE EGL. I will NEVER do EGL again. My "H" was SOOOOO not an H...but then again, it was my own stupidity...I should have taken the stone to someone who could accurately grade the color before purchasing. ALso, keep in mind that a future upgrade might being up the EGL as an issue!

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EGL ..........
Quote this post and reply to it Post#11 @ 11-10-03 , 10:39 AM


I will be the odd ball here, but the one time experience I had from purchasing diamonds graded by EGL were accurate just as the mini certificates stated the diamonds were.

As some of you are aware, I purchased a pair of diamond earrings bezel set in 950 Plat with screw posts from DiamondSafe.com that were graded as VS2 (D). One at .58c and the other at .56c.

I had them graded and appraised again after I got them and the jeweler told me that they were indeed as specified and graded and was impressed on what I paid for them.

Since that time, I purchased some other jewelry from another fine jeweler and she saw one of the earrings on me. She wanted a closer look at it, so I obliged. She too said that this diamond was definetly a (D) and VS2.

I am happy with my diamond purchase which was graded by EGL.

One note to make mention: DiamondSafe.com has GIA graduates working for them that reappraise the diamonds themselves that come with the EGL mini certificates and in turn they only sell the diamonds if they are accurate to the grading report.
At least this is what I was told before I ordered with them. It appears to be true being two other jewelers I went to varified the reports of my diamond purchase.

From what I have read about EGL not being as accurate or consistant as GIA is, that may be true, but they do get the grading right and accurate at times, just as I'm sure GIA or other labs get it wrong from time to time.

Just my 3 cents for what it's worth

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#12 @ 11-10-03 , 04:00 PM


The two EGL (European Gemological Laboratory)web sites:


EGL - Europe

EGL - USA

Buying the Diamond .. does makes sense!


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#13 @ 11-13-03 , 12:21 AM


My stone was graded by EGL Israel. The full certificate (not mini-cert) states that it is an SI2 clarity, H color. The stone was purchased out of the area. I have not taken it to an independent appraiser. However, my local jeweler who set the stone said that they agree it to be an SI2 but I have wondered if it was lower clarity than that. The thing is that I have never viewed I1 stones, so I don't know what they look like except for supposed I1 stones on eBay that look like garbage and my stone looks NOTHING like those "opaquey", pasty ones! Interestingly enough, EGL Israel did NOT give it their "SI3" grade. As for color, my jeweler thinks it is more like an I than an H, and I agree. At first when I heard that EGL Israel graded stones were often one grade lower than stated, I freaked out but now it doesn't bother me at all. I had already figured it wasn't a true H because it was more "yellow"/warm than my previous RB stone which was a true H but had slight fluorescence; I thought at first that it didn't look as white because it lacked the fl of my other stone. With the clarity, you can see inclusions if you closely scrutinize the stone, but if you just saw me wearing it and even asked to see my hand, you still wouldn't be able to see them, which is good enough for me at this point. As for color, I freaked because I NEVER in a million years thought I would own a stone of less than H color but as I stated on another thread here last week, I find that I actually PREFER the quote-unquote "warmer" colors in the I and J range. This is shocking to me! I was in the jeweler last week looking at potential side stones (ultimately trashed that idea and decided to go for an eternity band) and was really turned off by the D-F color stones So, in summing up my "rant", my EGL was most likely not as "on" as Platinum Diamond's was, but the stone is beautiful -- looks and performs just like the "ideals" except for low light situations (spot lights, sunshine, cloudy days, even fluorescent environments all good). And like my DH says, you liked the stone before you found out that it might not be what you thought it was, and you should still like it now! DH is trying to decide which camera to get, so pics are in the works!

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#14 @ 11-13-03 , 12:28 AM


Forgot to add this which I've stated on other recent DT threads:
I remember reading here on DT that the jeweler's special lights make a stone appear "whiter" than in the "real" world, which is probably why the stone looked like a true H and I did not detect any yellow at the time of purchase; however, at my local jeweler who set the stone, the stone looks MORE "yellow" than it does in real life! Once again, I'm

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#15 @ 11-13-03 , 12:32 PM


Diamonds and colored stones look different under different light. Some colored stones undergo a complete color change.

In order for your diamond to be color graded a gemologists would want to use "northern light", pure white paper background, and look through the stone from the side. A sample stone kit would also be helpful. Once the stone is set and color was viewed from the top I do not think it would be very easy to distinguish an H color from an I color. Any stone I or better would look "white". K or lower would show yellow or some other color.

SI2 should be eye clean. After a long period of study you might be able to find small inclusion/s with your unaided eye based upon turning the stone. Usually only at certain angles the inclusions can barely be seen. I1 stones on Ebay are rarely I1. If EGL is off by 1 grade figure Ebay dealers can be off by 2 grades. Usually they do not specify the exact grade. Instead of saying I1 they will say I, which in their minds can be I1,I2, or I3. They also like to say that stones range from SI to I, that way if one stone is SI2 and the rest are I3 they are in the clear.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#16 @ 11-13-03 , 03:47 PM


ESTTORPAG -- thanks for your informative post.

So, if I am understanding what "SI2 and eyeclean" means, if one looks at the stone and doesn't blatantly see any inclusions YET upon close scrutiny (taking time to view, turning the stone, etc.) can then see something but only at certain angles... but aren't quite "sure" if you are seeing something, keep questioning it and "going back" to try to "replicate" what you thought you might have seen, then it would be SI2 and not I1??? (And it would be I1 if you could see the inclusion outright?)

Thinking back to my last post, if two stones had the same (amount of) inclusions yet one stone was a 1 carat and the other a three carat, would the larger stone have a better clarity grade because its overall "percentage" of included area was less???

Thanks, Everyone!

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#17 @ 11-13-03 , 05:09 PM


So, is J color "teetering" between so-called "colorless" and "tinted", depending on its cut, its mounting, and its viewing environment?

Thanks for all the input on the clarity issue

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#18 @ 11-13-03 , 05:15 PM


Headlight,
I have a J ad it's totally white facing up ( I have an AGS ideal and H&A ) the J is on the last grade for the Near Colorless and in different lighting anfd angle, yu can see a TINY little glimpse of warmth. It's definitively NOT yellow. THe cut greade will make night and day between a "top white" and a "top tinted" stone.


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#19 @ 11-13-03 , 06:33 PM


I will crawl out on my tree limb again and say that J stones under 50 points are "supposed" to be white face up, while larger stones are "supposed" to be yellow.

Some ebay sellers are great and their feedback often shows that. In my opinions I have been talking about what would be a reasonable expectation. I would still be prepared to expect that Ebay grades CAN be off by 2 even with established sellers. In the same way I would expect that the old European Gem Laboratory grades could be off by 1 grade. I guess we have to wait and see what type of reputation the new US EGL establishes. There are no hard and fast rules. However I think I have developed reasonable expectations based upon my personal experience in the jewelry business, which at this point is pushing 35 years.

I also agree about the eye clean analogy applied to diamonds. I am assuming that the diamond/s we have been talking about are round brilliant cut with good proportions. In that case I will stick with my eye clean analogy with regard to what you should expect. That is what I would expect from an SI2 round brilliant stone. For emerald cuts or other diamonds with fewer facets or more of a window I would have to move up to VS2 for the eye clean concept to apply. For example, baguettes and emeralds would need to be VS2 in order to expect eye clean. I have never seen a GIA grade SI1 round brilliant diamond with easy to detect eye visible inclusions. GIA does not state that SI1 or SI2 stones must be eye clean but they do say: "SI1 and SI2 have inclusions that can be seen easily under 10 power magnification, but are not usually visible to the naked eye".

Here is a scenario: a diamond may have a very tiny but very black carbon spot located directly in the middle and near the surface of the table. It may get an SI1 grade and not be "eye clean". In most cases the average consumer would not notice the spot even after quick close inspection. The average jeweler would notice the spot without magnification. The average consumer with a good eye could easily see the spot under magnification and would then also be able to find it without magnification after identifying its location through the loop.

Here is another scenario: A stone has an obvious round black inclusion next to the girdle. It is definitely no better than I1. However, every jeweler knows that after the stone is set the stone will be eye clean and may even look like a VS stone because the inclusion will be hidden under a prong.

There are other situations where stone color and zoning (especially with regard to colored stones) can be mitigated through setting and metal choice.

I also love pizza and it would be great if we could remove inclusions by eating them!

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#20 @ 11-14-03 , 12:23 AM


Is there a "maximum" number of inclusions a stone can have to "fit" into a certain grade category, before it is "dropped" to the next "rung", so-to-speak? Like, if it has more than 4 inclusions, it becomes an SI2 (I say that arbitrarily), or whatever the next grade? I really need to go to gemologist school -- feels like I wasted my time in college learning I'm not sure what (certainly nothing to make me a good diamond consumer!).

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#21 @ 11-14-03 , 06:19 AM


headlight;

Number is only one factor. Also of
very important consideration is the location, size, and coloration of the
inclusion(s).

Barry

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#22 @ 11-14-03 , 11:27 AM


Barry -- thanks! Like I said, I think I need to enroll in gemologist college!

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Re: EGL USA vs. GIA
Quote this post and reply to it Post#23 @ 05-01-11 , 02:49 AM


I would definitely stick to GIA here. You are correct that they are considered to be more accurate and reliable. This is a big purchase and you want to know exactly what you're getting. I would stay away from labs that might grade more loosely. GIA has very strict grading standards and you won't have that problem with them.

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Re: EGL USA vs. GIA
Quote this post and reply to it Post#24 @ 06-13-11 , 12:12 PM


Quote:
Originally Posted by EllisONE
I would definitely stick to GIA here. You are correct that they are considered to be more accurate and reliable. This is a big purchase and you want to know exactly what you're getting. I would stay away from labs that might grade more loosely. GIA has very strict grading standards and you won't have that problem with them.

Basically, the price you paid for a diamond depends greatly on the grading printed on its certificate. We all know that GIA and AGS are two of the most recognized diamond grading associations and because of this, diamonds with their certificates are able to fetch a higher price compared to a similar grade diamond with certificates from other associations. Frankly speaking, the premium doesnít really come only from its branding but rather the consistency and strict standards that GIA and AGS deliver and maintain. Letís discuss about this in a little bit more detail.

Consistency of result
The act of grading a diamond is always subjective as there is no universal definition of the grades given for the 4Cs. In many cases, if you were to send a diamond to both GIA and EGL (not that you would), you will probably receive different evaluations as a result. For example, a diamond with Color G to EGL may seem like color I to GIA. This variation of grading outcome is acceptable; after all, you are talking about two different grading bodies looking at the same diamond! However, if there is varying grades within the same association itself for similar diamonds, it is something undesirable and annoying. Such organizations have the tendency to change their grading standards periodically and even make grading mistakes within their labs. Consistent quality is what made both GIA and AGS so widely accepted.

The main difference between GIA and EGL is that the former is a non-profit organization while EGL is a commercial institution. Therefore, understandingly, GIA tends to be more objective than EGL when grading diamonds as the latter is more customer-focused (in this situation, their customers are the diamond merchants). This results in a disparity so well-known in the industry that it is no longer secret. If that is the case, why would EGL gain so much popularity and edge in the market? This is partly due to the poor service, high cost of service, the long time taken to grade a diamond and the unavailability of the pre-cert option which both GIA and AGS deliver. EGL came in a fill in the gaps and provided pre-cert options that allow diamond merchants to look at the determined grading before deciding whether to get the actual certificate printed out.

Again, due to the difference in their organization focus, EGL tends to give higher grades than GIA and AGS when similar diamonds are inspected. It is also an open secret that EGL gives an average of 2-3 higher grades than AGS and GIA. What does this mean for the consumer like you and me?

In reality, for example, looking at diamond A which is graded by EGL with a certain rating and diamond B with a similar rating by GIA, the diamond which is certified by EGL might seem to sell at a significant discount. However, in actual case, diamond A would probably be graded by GIA with a lower grading and hence be of lower price.

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Re: EGL USA vs. GIA
Quote this post and reply to it Post#25 @ 07-05-11 , 04:59 PM


Just to let you know, I've already heard several cases where someone tried to sell their diamonds jewelry and got less than what they expected because the appraiser told them it was an EGL certificate. I would say GIA is definitely the way to go, since you certainly want to be able to sell your diamond at it's real value if in case you need to

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