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| HOME : FORUM : EDUCATION : JEWELRY : Jan: Gelin-Abaci tension $800, Kretchmer $3000... what's up?! |
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Post#1 @
01-05-01
, 08:00 AM
I saw where Jan responded to someone about servicing Gelin-Abaci tension settings, but if anyone can shed light please do. A store in Philly(Robbins) has Gelin-Abaci settings and quoted me a price of $800 to mount the diamond in platinum. Since then I've done research on Steven Kretchmer, Niessing and Paul Klecka and they charge over 2 thousand for their tension settings. Can I feel safe with the philly deal?? I can't imagine getting anything close to the same quality for such a fraction of the cost. |
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Post#2 @
01-05-01
, 10:35 AM
There are some Gelin-Abaci rings that run over $2000 in hand engraved platinum so it depends on the style that you are looking at I guess. We have been carrying their line for a while and are very pleased with the quality and craftmanship of them. Nice people too. ------------------ For those that want to know the TRUTH about diamonds, just ask me. |
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Post#3 @
01-05-01
, 05:57 PM
Gelin-Abaci is someone I would recommend even though I don't carry their rings. They know what they are doing when it comes to tension mountings. Not everyone can to that correctly. dimonbob |
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Post#4 @
01-05-01
, 09:21 PM
if u are in philly, go to linde meyer jewelers in liberty place and look at the kretchmer tension setttings. i think u will find that they are much more elegantly modeled and the platinum feels heavier than the gelin one. i bought a kretchmer round headed omega ring in shiny platinum finish for a 1.01 round e color solitaire which i wear as a pinky ring. it is quite the thing. |
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Post#5 @
02-28-01
, 03:19 PM
I am Steven Kretchmer. It is an error to compare my tension rings with others, though Niessing makes an excellent product, and were the first to market them. Our metallurgical methods and designs are different. I am on very good terms with Niessing. Gelin and Abaci was formed down the street from me almost minutes after I broke up with a partner I had in LA. The designs you see they sell, that are confusingly similar to mine, are copys of my original designs. If they appear to be as well engineered, that is incorrect. My tension settings are blended with special alloy compositions that are pressurized and homogenized at accurate temperatures and subsequently precision heat-treated. The processes, when done well, are costly and I take very special attention to do them very precisely. These processes are patented and if others are performing these methods to get superior strength and reliabilty, they are infringers, and their work could become contraband. I am continually monitoring the metallurgical structure of copies, and will vigorously defend my patents. The copyists have analyzed my alloys and have been attempting to reproduce the composition. Side by side it is also apparent that the knock-offs are less gracefully proportioned, as they are knock-offs ...not collectibles. The difference in the art is clear. There are many people who would rather spend less for inferior as cast products because the difference is not easily visible. There are differences in knife-blades, for example, though they appear very similar. It seems that many stores that do not carry my work have no issue with carrying knock-offs; that is why we prefer not to be in those stores. There are always people who would rather pay less for a knock-off than pay for the authentic product that is of premium quality, and in the long run, the best value. Quality brands, more often than not, represent quality products. Of course they cost more, they cost much more to create. I am aware of the skilled merchandising methods the knock-off manufacturers use to try to convince the buyer that their product is equal in value, but it is BS, and you will not see those products recognized by the most reputable institutions and outlets; those that recognize the differences. [Edited by Steven Kretchmer on 02-28-01 at 15:26] |
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Post#6 @
02-28-01
, 03:32 PM
Welcome in DT Steven You put down some good points  S |
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Post#7 @
02-28-01
, 05:44 PM
Steven What patents do you hold? I am curious as to what degree an alloy is patentable. R/A |
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Post#8 @
02-28-01
, 06:53 PM
thank u mr. kretchmer. i purchased one of your tension rings after looking at the knock offs. there is no comparison as to the modeling of the rings. yours is more finely shaped. also your platinum feels heavier than the knock offs. as my grand mother always said"cheap is cheap" |
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Post#9 @
02-28-01
, 07:19 PM
Innovative alloys are very patentable. Hoover and Strong has been licensed a couple of platinum alloys that I've patented...Plat/S+1 and Plat/S+2. They are easier to work and machine, and springy; derivatives of the alloy that I developed for my tension settings. There are a myriad of alloys patented over the years for countless purposes. You can read about patents, or contact patent lawyers. You can look up patents online. I have four and am presently working on others concerning gold crystals, gold compounds for decorative purposes, a machine, and platinum solders. Thank you for your welcome, and I'm glad you appreciate the work. By the way, Paul Klecka does not make tension settings. He's a very good friend, and he creates a different and beautiful setting he calls a "Floater". A tension setting is different and holds the center stone in place by the power of the whole shank. There is a very good article in AJM magazine of the MJSA on what is not a tension setting: "Putting on the Pressure", July 1996. In the article they explain Klecka's work. A retailer is also interviewed in the article and states, "You always have people looking for a cheap copy, but when you come to a tension ring, it's not a cheap copy. It's a design that will lose a diamond." I have had to write analyses for insurance companies as an expert witness concerning copies that have lost their valuable diamonds. [Edited by Steven Kretchmer on 02-28-01 at 19:38] |
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Post#10 @
02-28-01
, 07:32 PM
Hi Steven I handle the Gelin & Abaci line. We picked the line up about a year ago at the Vegas Show. I think your company was there too. I was not aware that they are a knockoff of your product. I thought that a knockoff would have to be an exact duplication. They have a large selection of different styles that didn`t look like yours at all. So far they have been a great company to work with. I haven`t found them to be cheaply made either. We have also been contacted by Niessing to handle their product as well. If Niessing was the first to market the Tension Settings, does that make everyone else a Knockoff too? Brad  [Edited by Brad on 02-28-01 at 19:35] |
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Post#11 @
02-28-01
, 07:55 PM
Yes, but GAI (please note that this is not the GIA!), makes their bread and butter on my most popular styles, are as-cast(no matter what they tell you. Have them analyzed as I do). A copyright owner is also owner of derivatives of the design. Slight variations do not escape judgement...because if I choose to go to trial, the designs are judged by judge or jury, and the question they determine is, "Are they copying, and making profit from another's original design or its derivatives?" Concerning Niessing: our designs do not crossover to eachothers. We made an agreement over a very nice meal, that if we felt any designs were too similar to the other's we would work it out with either royalties or eliminating the design from our line. The innovative technology I patented to create tension settings is quite different from Niessing's and was judged original having used five references to Niessing's work in the discussion of Background Art. These are legal questions and issues. I have learned a great deal about intellectual property law from my experiences out of necessity. It's not my favorite subject. Lawyers know a lot more than I do about those specific questions. My passion is jewelry. |
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Post#12 @
02-28-01
, 08:14 PM
Hi Steven So are you saying they are duplicating some of your designs? On the are as cast part, can you explain ? Did you say that a previous partner has started GAI ? Thankyou for your responses. Brad [Edited by Brad on 02-28-01 at 20:19] |
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Post#13 @
02-28-01
, 10:26 PM
Mr. Kretchmer, Hello and welcome to DT. It's so wonderful to have so many professionals on this board. Your post about copyright and patents sounded very familiar. Just yesterday at work (IBM) I attended an onsite seminar from the legal department about what we can and can't do, use, copy, etc. Everyone sues IBM because it's such a big company, they think that they can get a big payoff, so IBM is absolutely fanatical about protecting other's copyrights and patents. It doesn't have to be a direct copy to be infringement. It only has to be "similar". And also it's infringement to create derivitave works from a copyright. Your agreement with Neissing is also quite common. For example, IBM has reciprocal agreements with companies like Microsoft and Apple (but not Oracle  ) where software code, patented processes, and trade secrets are shared.I haven't seen tension rings in person--only over the Internet, but they look stunning. You do incredible work. Thanks for sharing your expertise with us. Shelby  [Edited by shelbyscout on 02-28-01 at 22:29] |
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Steven Kretchmer in London???
Post#14 @
11-02-01
, 04:36 AM
Steven, Can your designs be located in outlets in London - UK? if so then can you point me in the right direction - I have been looking for them here quite extensively to no avail. Neisseng have an outlet which do similar to your Omega styles but I like yours far more. I really do not want to have buy from a dealer in the US. As I don't have time to fly out there, have the ring sized and provide a diamond/ensure it is OK for tension etc... Can you name some outlets in either London/Europe? Regards, Raj Dhillon |
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Post#15 @
11-02-01
, 11:23 AM
Steven, Welcome to the forum. Nice to see such great post. |
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how I see it...
Post#16 @
11-03-01
, 02:56 PM
... and I may have a couple things wrong. But ... Neissing invented the tension ring. To make a tension ring hold with certainty, you need the metal to have a certain amount of structural integrity to exert enough force to hold a stone in place. With soft jewelery metals, this is a bit of an issue. The metals are just not strong enough by default to maintain these pressures. From what I understand, Neissing's methods involve work hardening, to increase the strength of the metal so that it will hold its shape under the pressures required to guarantee that the stone stays in place. Steven Kretchmer has patented processes which involve using temperature to harden the metal so that it will be strong enough to maintain its shape under pressure. While I do admire his organizations work, and it's truly artistic and beautiful, I think that it's a bit low for him come in here and slam Gelin & Abaci. Given that heat treatments for strengthening metal have been known for thousands of years, and that Neissing came up with the tension ring concept, it is not a major leap of innovation to combine the "other" method of hardening the metal to the existing tension ring invention of Neissing. I don't know how G&A are making their rings hold... but whatever they're doing, if they're making it work while negotiating the patent minefield laid down by the competition, then I think they actually deserve some respect, rather than having such blanket condemnation. The assertation from Kretchmer that they're making all their money off of his designs, should be one made with proof. And finally, if their workmanship is of a lower order, I don't see what the problem is. There are places in the market for Ferraris and for Mustangs. It's not fair to slam a mustang because it's not a Ferrari. If you can't afford a Ferrari, a Mustang just may very well make you a proud, pleased, and happy owner. If they were charging the same amount, then I think that's a worthy criticism. That said, from what I've seen of G&A, I think it to be quite nice, and more than satisfactory for the majority of the buying public. I would own one in a heartbeat. |
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Re: Jan: Gelin-Abaci tension $800, Kretchmer $3000... what's up?!
Post#17 @
10-17-05
, 03:17 AM
hi ... i'm new to this ... i was wondering ... how do you find stores that carry steven kretchmer? ... does anyone know of any in texas or maryland? amanda |
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Re: Jan: Gelin-Abaci tension $800, Kretchmer $3000... what's up?!
Post#18 @
10-17-05
, 09:28 AM
almik, Have you looked on the Kretchmer site, they usually have listings of authorized dealers. If not then contact them and they will tell you. Irish 
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Re: Jan: Gelin-Abaci tension $800, Kretchmer $3000... what's up?!
Post#19 @
12-23-06
, 02:41 PM
Quote:
This is a good analogy. GAI has a much larger catalog than Kretchmer. GAI sells many more rings than Kretchmer. GAI is a much bigger company than Kretchmer. It's no wonder Kretchmer wants a piece of GAI by suing them. |
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Re: Jan: Gelin-Abaci tension $800, Kretchmer $3000... what's up?!
Post#20 @
12-23-06
, 03:02 PM
Quote:
They have higher volume which allows lower cost. In manufacturing the price per unit drops as the quantity goes up. Dealers also get larger discount if they buy and sell more. |
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Last edited by 1scorpion : 12-23-06 at 03:03 PM.
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Re: Jan: Gelin-Abaci tension $800, Kretchmer $3000... what's up?!
Post#21 @
12-23-06
, 03:24 PM
I know this is an old thread, but some of you may not know Steven Kretchmer passed away a few months ago in Los Angeles in a motorocycle accident. My heart goes out to his family. I hope they're able to keep the business running well. I'm a big fan of their work. I have to admit I'm not a fan of Gelin and Abaci either. Their rings are cheaper for a very simple reason and that reason is because they have less metal, period. Less precious metals = cheaper ring. Basic physics will also tell you less metal = less clamping force. Unless they're able to work harden, anneal or otherwise increase the tensile load in their rings to twice the strength so they can use 1/2 the weight I can't see how their rings are stronger then a manufacturer like Steven Kretchmer who build HEAVY rings. If you look at Niessings original tension rings from the early 80's you'll see they look like giant life preservers. Big massive rings that must weigh 25-40 grams in 18k/plat by the looks of them, and their present day rings are almost just as heavy. Every year I go to the Vegas show and see Gelin and Abaci's work I'm always surprised at how lightweight their rings are, some no more then 7-8 grams or so I would say, perhaps less. Anyhow like always with everything in life, you get what you pay for. |
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Last edited by Adylon : 12-23-06 at 03:28 PM.
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Re: Jan: Gelin-Abaci tension $800, Kretchmer $3000... what's up?!
Post#22 @
12-23-06
, 04:58 PM
Merry Christmas everybody. Here is a Gelin Abaci ring that was just finished and we are getting ready to deliver. They make a very nice product. This is one of their new styles that has a really nice look. In a size 6 in platinum this one weighs almost 14 grams. |
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Re: Jan: Gelin-Abaci tension $800, Kretchmer $3000... what's up?!
Post#23 @
12-23-06
, 07:47 PM
Hey Brad, honestly out of all GA's rings that one is one of my favorites I have to admit. I'm sure you also know platinum is much heavier then gold alloys. So that ring cast in 14K would probably be right around 7-8 grams like I saw in their booth in Vegas. I didn't see any SK or Danhov rings in 14K, but if I did they would be more like 15+ grams, none of their rings are light weight. The last Danhov ring I made in 14K was a 3-stone type and it weighed close to 20 grams and would have weighed about 35ish in platinum. I don't think GA make any 14K rings that are 20 grams. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with making a lightweight tension ring. I'm sure they did their math and feel the setting is secure. You can make a 1.5 gram ring out of titanium that is just as strong if not stronger, but the ring itself is not as precious all things considered. I'm just saying 7 grams is always going to be cheaper then 14 grams.... and that most of GA rings are lightweight in design, that's all. So if one ring costs double or slightly more but it also has double the metal, one should not be surprised. |
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Re: Jan: Gelin-Abaci tension $800, Kretchmer $3000... what's up?!
Post#24 @
12-31-06
, 08:26 PM
Brad, I love that ring, how much does something like that go for? |
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Re: Jan: Gelin-Abaci tension $800, Kretchmer $3000... what's up?!
Quote:
Quote:
I don't recall Steven saying that he was or wanted to sue them, just that he could.... |
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Last edited by desirable1 : 04-05-08 at 05:12 PM.
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