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Old dimonbob
 
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Quote this post and reply to it Post#1 @ 11-28-00 , 04:45 PM


There are a lot of threads up with pictures of "want to be" hearts and arrows. Lets all us "experts" get on the same page. There is one set of standards that qualifies a diamond to be a true hearts and arrows. Anything else is just wishful thinking. There are no A, B or C hearts and arrows. Here are the standards that everyone should be living by. If you want to invent another name for a diamond that is missing a heart, the hearts have tails, both sides of the heart halves don't match etc. go right ahead but don't try to confuse or mislead the public by calling them hearts and arrows. Lets see, can I call a diamond with a 59% table Ideal? Can I call an AGS001 an Ideal? Can I call a diamond that is 5% out-of-round, round? Can I call a 0.99ct a one carat? We all know the answer to these questions so lets stick with the "Truth"!




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Quote this post and reply to it Post#2 @ 11-28-00 , 05:01 PM


Good post Bob. I tried starting this H&A thing several times in the past, but it didn't go. I think it's rolling now. I would really like everyones comment on the hearts picture I posted on another thread.

Thanks for this info!

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#3 @ 11-28-00 , 05:12 PM


Sibelius

Good topic dimonbob,

Why do you show the same H&A images on differnet stones on your site?
Do think it doesnt matter if image shows actual diamond or not?
Sibelius

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#4 @ 11-28-00 , 05:27 PM


DimonBob;

With all due respect, you've got it all
wrong!

90 pointer's are a carat and H&A are
the best regardless of how they look.
Don't take my word for it, just refer
to the dimpled, hanging, and pregnant chads
down in Florida!

------------------
barry

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#5 @ 11-28-00 , 07:29 PM


Hey Diamondbob,
You need to get another slogan. This one has been taken.


Jan


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For those that want to know the TRUTH about diamonds, just ask me.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#6 @ 11-28-00 , 11:42 PM


I like the H&A or not thinking.
Unfortunately grading of the H&A images seems inevitable.

What we need are research funds and cooperative cutters.

A complete analysis needs to be done on thousands (tens of thousands) of diaonds.

Once the relationships between H&A images, firescope images, and b-scope readings can be correlated then we can sit down and create a grading system.

How can we get this rolling?

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#7 @ 11-28-00 , 11:59 PM


Anybody who wants to see what Hearts & Arrows look like at their very best, and by which ALL others can be judged, look at an Eightstar. This is as close to PERFECTION as it gets. The Eightstar isn't for everybody, just for those who won't settle for second best. These comments are based on actual viewing of several diamonds all of which were some of the top ranked diamonds.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#8 @ 11-29-00 , 01:36 AM


If you want to invent another name for a diamond that is missing a heart, the hearts have tails, both sides of the heart halves don't match etc. go right ahead but don't try to confuse or mislead the public by calling them hearts and arrows


The "7 heart wonder" sounds promising.




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Quote this post and reply to it Post#9 @ 11-29-00 , 02:28 AM


Hi Is the cgl in Japan still in operation. Just curious I was talking to another one of the early Hearts and Arrows dealers just the other day, and it came up in our discussion.


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#10 @ 11-29-00 , 10:40 AM


Great thread, Dbob. Too bad the experts are probably too busy at this time of year to respond. Couple things. It appears you are taking a "strict" interpretation of CGL as to what hearts & arrows are.

I assume your point on this is that "unbranded" h&a's should not be compared to "branded" h&a's and even some "branded" h&a's may not cut to the specifications of the "true h&a's", so consumers shouldn't compare apples to oranges?

I hear where you are coming from, but isn't there a range of specifications for "ideal cut". Ideal cut is not now the exact tolkowsky specifications. Under the AGS standards, it is a range. Shouldn't the H&A pattern be viewed as a range as well? How many "h&a" stones out there have absolutely none of the "imperfections" noted per CGL?

Also, even CGL's standards seem open to some (granted, probably slight) interpretation. For instance, they say regarding heart pattern check points that you should look for, "the degree to which the hearts are broken". That means to me that hearts may have some breaks and still be considered "true h&a's".

I would still agree with you overall that there are many vendors out there selling stones as "true h&a's", which aren't even close. It would be nice to get some more conformity as to what can truly be labeled an h&a and have it consistent amongst jewelers.

The question I would have is, at what point does a minor change in the h&a pattern that would "disqualify" it as a true h&a under the CGL standards, actually have a significant impact on the brilliance of the stone?

Hope to hear some response from the experts out there as they have time from the holiday rush!!

E

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#11 @ 11-29-00 , 04:11 PM


Any other thoughts before this thread rides off into DT oblivion??

Anyone?????.....Anyone???

Ferris....Bueller....

Frye....Frye.....

E

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#12 @ 11-29-00 , 04:26 PM


It seems to me that several of you are dancing around the fact that we need to agree on a strict set of standards for the Hearts and Arrows cut diamonds.

How pink does a sapphire have to be before it is a red ruby? How many minor deviations from a perfect heart or arrow pattern would disqualify it as a true hearts and arrows diamond? Neither of these questions can be agreed on in the jewelry industry (YET) but if the deviation is as obvious as in the "7 heart wonder" or the "7 star wonder" or all those hearts with tails in the pattern that was put up in another thread, we all should agree that it does not qualify.

Yes, Alpha is very strict on the consistency of their grading and that's why Whiteflash only sells "A Cut Above" hearts and arrows, but if they let a weak H&A pattern slip through, Whiteflash sells it and the pattern was put up on diamondtalk, all of you would be on me like white on rice! I would be ashamed if I got caught selling a "7 heart wonder" as a hearts and arrows "A Cut Above" branded diamond.

CGL still exists but that is a moot point. CGL set the standards and that is what we have and will continue to have until an industry group can get together and agree on a better standard. You cannot deviate from the standards or you will get the mess we have in the "Florida chad count". Who do you think the hearts and arrows industry is? We are! GIA and AGS both step away from the H&A issue because of just what is going on right now in this thread. We have to live by the standards as they were written by CGL or we have to change them and agree on the standards.

Is there an 8* A, B and C grade? I doubt it! Would 8* allow a 7* to be called an 8*? I doubt it! Both 8* and hearts and arrows are cutting techniques which are either right or not. I spent considerable time at Alpha learning from Brian Gavin about his strict interpretation of the CGL hearts and arrows standard. I looked at many H&A patterns in the scope and learned what is a weak H&A and what is a crisp pattern.

Rock - It does not matter what effect a missing heart has to the eye. We passed what the eye can see a long time ago. If you are talking to an engineer, they ask what the angles and percentages and measurements are. They ask if it has perfect hearts and arrows and what the difference between this brand and that brand. They have even started to ask about A, B & C grades. An engineer, or any discerning diamond buyer, wants exact standards and that gives him the information he needs to know in his mind that the Hearts and Arrows diamond is A Cut Above and beautiful.
dimonbob

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#13 @ 11-29-00 , 04:34 PM


Dbob,

You said,
"How many minor deviations from a perfect heart or arrow pattern would disqualify it as a true hearts and arrows diamond? Neither of these questions can be agreed on in the jewelry industry (YET) but if the deviation is as obvious as in the "7 heart wonder" or the "7 star wonder" or all those hearts with tails in the pattern that was put up in another thread, we all should agree that it does not qualify."


Don't know if this was aimed at me, but if you read my whole post, that is what I was getting at. I said I agree we need a standard that everyone lives by.

E

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#14 @ 11-29-00 , 05:08 PM


Ice,

Then should the price reflect whether the diamond is A, B or C grade? What is a hearts and arrows diamond worth? What if it doesn't do as well on a Brilliancescope as a non-hearts and arrows stone? What is a B or C grade worth?

Just questions...

lawmax

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#15 @ 11-29-00 , 05:36 PM


dimonbob -- i dont mean to bring up this point again but i dont know if it was ever answered from previous posts. with the pics you show on your website it appears that they are file pics and not pics that are for that particular stone. is this correct?

if not, why wouldnt you show a pic of your stones individually? i'd like to see pics of each of your stones so that we can compare them. i'm sure you can pull up plenty that show up similar to what your standard is. but i'm sure there will be one that slips through the cracks and isnt perfect. but i cant know that for sure unless you want to put up your goods.

so maybe some have gotten through the cracks but the consumer didnt know any better.

so are the pics on your site specific to each stone or are you just kicking back throwing stones without showing your true product?

if they are really pics from the viewer of each product i apologize for being so rude but if they are i would please like to know that from you.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#16 @ 11-29-00 , 05:39 PM


Ice
If I had several AGS000 or GIA EX EX Ideal cut diamonds in my safe and they didn't qualify as H&A, why wouldn't I just sell them as Ideal cut? There is nothing wrong with ideals. It is the highest grade AGS gives. Why try to make hearts and arrows cut look bad by attaching A, B & C grades. Do you have A, B & C grade Ideals? Call a spade a spade and be done with it! You can sell hearts and arrows along side of ideals the same as you can sell regular cut diamonds.
dimonbob


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#17 @ 11-29-00 , 06:06 PM


NDnewbie
When is the last time you were up on our site and READ what is up there? You are beating a dead horse here. For the answers to your questions why don't you go to our website and READ our disclaimer? Just for your information and for the last time - All of the photographs of our A Cut Above hearts and arrows diamonds are of the actual diamond.The hearts and arrows images are sample images, as indicated in the disclaimer - actual images are e-mailed to customers upon request. Have you any idea how long it takes to photograph just one of those H and A images? Would you like a full time job of taking pictures of diamonds?
dimonbob

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#18 @ 11-29-00 , 06:20 PM


dimonbob -- that is exactly what i was asking. i dont have the time to keep browsing your site, in fact i barely have time to come on DT anymore. i asked the question since you come on here so i could find out for sure.

i had just browsed this afternoon and saw the pics and didnt have time to read the disclaimer. i figured the diamond pic was the real one but didnt think the H&A pic was.

so now you answered my question and that's what i was asking. as for how much time, i dont know how long it would take but i know rhino does it for his. so i just thought it was interesting that you like to take shots at how perfect or imperfect his H&As were if no one can compare any of yours. i'm sure he could post a generic pic of all of his stones as well so he wouldnt take any shots from people but he doesnt.

i'm sure you have a lot more stones but it was just an observation from over here. i know you said that you dont like to comment on other's stones b/c it sounds like sour grapes and i respect that but you still did comment.

i would just be interested to see some of your H&A patterns of your stones but i guess i'll never be able to.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#19 @ 11-29-00 , 06:40 PM


personally, i think rhino does a great job of picking out what is or isnt a H&A. i've found his standards much more strict than that of many others.

but i dont know if that was directed at dimonbob or at me. i'm so busy i dont know if i'm coming or going.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#20 @ 11-29-00 , 06:46 PM


NB
I did not want to disappoint you.
Here are a couple of H&A pictures of two diamonds on our website.
The first one is a 1.11 AGS00 H SI1 the second one is a .92 GIA EX EX F VS1.
dimonbob



[img]http://www.diamondring.com/ubb/uploads/dimonbob/WF43503AGS000111.jpg>
<img src=http://www.diamondring.com/ubb/uploads/dimonbob/WF8206GIA-EXEX-092.jpg[/img]



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Quote this post and reply to it Post#21 @ 11-29-00 , 06:58 PM


DB -- thanks, the pics look great. i'm sure it took a while to do those and i appreciate them. my only concern would be that for the most part i have seen very beautiful H&A diamonds from rhino's site. the one in question is good to bring up to figure out what defines a H&A. i would say that this is one of rhino's less than perfect H&As but the others i've seen from him are great.

so my concern is that if i had asked him to post a couple pics he would post two of the ones that are so nice. i dont mean to take away from what you have there which are obviously great looking H&As. but i have a feeling (right or wrong) that if all the H&As you have had been posted, one of them might not be so perfect.

so again, great looking patterns and thanks for posting them. and i realize the point of the discussion was to figure out what was or wasnt H&A but when it comes down to specifics coming from a person who does well more than what is expected from him, it's hard to pass judgement on what he has (which i know you werent trying to do but i seem to have taken it as such).

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#22 @ 11-29-00 , 07:02 PM


DB -- i'd also like to take a chance to admit when i was too harsh on you. you said that you werent passing judgement but i immediately jumped on it when you did start commenting on rhino's stone. you were asked your opinion on it and you gave just that. by your definition you gave your honest opinion and i applaud that. we all differ on our opinion and that's what makes this forum so great so thank you. please accept my apology for being so tough on you personally.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#23 @ 11-29-00 , 07:06 PM


DB,

How do you take those pictures? They looked touched up.

Wacky

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#24 @ 11-29-00 , 07:14 PM


As far as calling a spade a spade, it seems to me that Rhino is far more forthright with his customers about stones that may or may not be H&A by posting each individual picture. I mean, if someone is looking for an H&A stone and they see that there's one slightly broken arrow or something, there's no deception going on here. Rhino lays it out for all to see--plus more, firescope in addition to H&A viewer. If the customer wants to be 100% sure that they are getting a clean, crisp H&A pattern then they can either buy a branded H&A, in which case they will pay slightly more, or they can see the image and judge for themselves. Rhino can call it a "super duper Robin Hood Romance" cut for all that it matters--what matters is that the firescope and H&A viewer image is there for all to see and judge for themselves. Before there were H&A there were Lazare's who branded an ideal so customers would feel comfortable that they were getting a truly ideal cut diamond. There will always be people out there who say things like "clarity=good" and unless there's a GIA or AGS cert to back it up, it's all opinion. And since GIA and AGS doesn't cert H&As, then it's a moot point. So if you have a branded H&A, then you know you're selling the best to your customers. If you customer wants to try to save a few bucks by getting an offbrand that doesn't really qualify as an H&A, and the customer sees the viewer image and is okay with it anyway, then what's the problem? Nobody's stealing your brand name. Yeah, it's probably unethical to sell an H&A that as an H&A that doesn't demonstrate clear pattern, but is it any more unethical than the crap that some of those mall stores pass off to uneducated consumers?
Shelby

[Edited by shelbyscout on 11-29-2000.]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#25 @ 11-29-00 , 07:23 PM


Shelby,

What do type 115-120 wpm? The hell with the topic...I can just blurt out random comments, I'm Wacky.

Wacky

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