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Old Brad

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#1 @ 09-28-00 , 12:18 PM


This was an unaswered from a while back. In the photo of the diamond you can see that light is being reflected in the anvil shaped areas that some have described as light leakage on the firescope view.
Was this really light leakage? Sure doesn`t look like it.
In the gilbertson scope what color would these areas be represented as?

Brad

[img]http://www.diamondring.com/ubb/uploads/Brad/Oscar::sbrilliant.jpg>
<img src=http://www.diamondring.com/ubb/uploads/Brad/OscarFirescope2.JPG[/img]



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Quote this post and reply to it Post#2 @ 09-28-00 , 01:48 PM


Brad,
I would never say this is for sure, but from the colored scope I saw not long ago, this would be white. As always, each diamond would have to be viewed under the scope to be sure. I did see diamonds that were very much like the one your showing, and they showed white.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#3 @ 09-28-00 , 02:11 PM


Hi I looked at some of those Gilbertscope charts and based on those I didn`t see much that displayed white in this area.
When I compared the precentages on the graph it looked to be dark blue.
Here are the specs.
Table 55
crown angle 34.2
crown height 15.2
pavilion angle 40.8
pavilion depth 42.9
total depth 60.8
girdle .9-1.2


Brad




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Quote this post and reply to it Post#4 @ 09-28-00 , 03:24 PM


Brad,
The chart at least to me is not very easy to see small differences, I wish the size was larger.

Did I follow the measurements wrong? Looks as though it's on the edge(dotted line through it) of the chart. And I'm still learning, but doesn't the chart and the diamond above have different table percentages?

Garry also said,
"For all collages these are constant:
Table size 57%
Girdle 3% (thickest)
50:50 crown halves
80:20 pavilion halves"

So there could be some other differences too, maybe crown or pavilion halves, or even the girdle thickness. Just a thought.

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[Edited by StevL on 09-28-2000.]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#5 @ 09-28-00 , 04:49 PM


Thats all I`ve seen so far is the graph with the 57% table.
From what I`ve read so far Gibertson was working on improving the obstruction of light associated with viewers. Light enters diamonds at various angles along a 180 degree arc, and if the viewer is blocking light then the optical pattern displayed can be different.
Is the light that is flashing across the outer edges light leakage ? or was it that the angle of light is entering at an angle the viewer wasn`t picking up correctly because it was blocked from that direction..

From this photo and seeing this diamond in person it doesn`t appear to be leaking.
That brings up something else and that is this. Optical viewers do not measure light performance but are good for judging symmetry.
There seems to be some confusion along these lines.


Brad



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Quote this post and reply to it Post#6 @ 09-28-00 , 08:55 PM


Brad,
I think the viewer is the person viewing it, as in their head, shoulders etc. I had to read some of that stuff twice to make sure, but it's the on-lookers own self in the way, not the viewing tool(see the article you posted that Al wrote http://www.diamondring.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002998.html ).

------------------------------
Transcript of Dr. Reinitz, GIA at AGS Conclave 99

Questions asked by Betty Lian-Huey at American Gem Society Conclave, New Orleans: April 9, 1999

Q: So what you are saying is that the FireScope is basically a very important tool for todays diamond cutting industry.

R: Yeah! The FireScope is a very interesting tool because it lets you see aspects of the optical proportion of the diamond. Very similar to our diffused lighting conditions. It *lets you see brilliance* and less of the other aspects.

I think Garry has made mention of this too, just said a little different.

Here is one way he said it,
"The name of this instrument is poorly chosen because it does not measure Fire (dispersion).
It measures brilliance and also gives a great
way of looking at symetry".

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[Edited by StevL on 09-28-2000.]

[Edited by StevL on 09-28-2000.]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#7 @ 09-29-00 , 01:53 AM


The shapes of the outer white areas aren't even so it's probably some leakage and a lot of reflection. How about taking a white card and coloring half of it blue then holding the diamond at the dividing line with blue on the crown side. What color are the white faces? White or blue? If white it's leakage. If matching blue it's mostly not leakage. If it's paler it's some mixture. DIY scope.

Camera
B
B
- Diamond
W
W

Add more stripes of different colors if you're curious.

No guarantee that this will work but it's worth trying.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#8 @ 09-30-00 , 05:22 AM


Brad...

To help in comparing the different views of that diamond, I've done a composite picture with all 3 views (H&A, FireScope and normal). Hope this helps the discussion.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#9 @ 09-30-00 , 07:47 AM


Thanks Johnny Boy,
That area appears not really white, but grey. Any ideas as to why?


Jan


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#10 @ 09-30-00 , 10:03 AM


The brightness and/or contrast is not correct in this photo. The firescope image is not that dark red when viewed by your eye.

I downloaded the photo and adjusted the brightness and contrast to be closer to the firescopes true color, and those areas turned white.

It has been said before, all of our computer monitors, cameras, etc are not color sync to each other. Heck, even when you print them it's not an exact color match.

Hope this helps.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#11 @ 10-04-00 , 12:59 PM


I know this post is a bit dated but I just came across another curiosity when I was surfing Jonathan's site. It appears that most of the H&A display this flash of light at the anvil areas but Eightstar on the other hand do not. Instead eightstar seem to display the same type of flash of light at the V's between the arrows which shows up as pinkish white on the firescope. Here's a link to one of the eighststars. Just about all of them disply the same thing.
http://www.goodoldgold.com/newpage12.htm

Any ideas why that is?

Jamesd,

I'll have to try that test of yours when I get my loupe back from my friend.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#12 @ 10-04-00 , 01:00 PM


I know this post is a bit dated but I just came across another curiosity when I was surfing Jonathan's site. It appears that most of the H&A display this flash of light at the anvil areas but Eightstar on the other hand do not. Instead eightstar seem to display the same type of flash of light at the V's between the arrows which shows up as pinkish white on the firescope. Here's a link to one of the eighststars. Just about all of them disply the same thing.
http://www.goodoldgold.com/newpage12.htm

Any ideas why that is?

Jamesd,

I'll have to try that test of yours when I get my loupe back from my friend.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#13 @ 10-04-00 , 05:18 PM


You got it, "pinkish". This is not white light that is leaking, but it's light traveling at an angle other than upward, or leaking in a downward direction.

Reds and pinks are good, the black arrows are good, white is not.

Very good observation on your part!

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#14 @ 10-04-00 , 05:25 PM


I adjusted the color of the above photo to as close as I could while looking at a diamond in my firescope. It was pretty close on my monitor, and here is how it looks.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#15 @ 10-05-00 , 04:00 AM


Rhino-

I hope I can convince you to teach me how to photograph diamonds in the scope. You do a great job. My pics just don't look like yours yet.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#16 @ 10-05-00 , 04:11 AM


The H&A viewer shows the leakage in black.
Is that what you see?
Sibelius

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#17 @ 10-05-00 , 04:23 AM


Sibelius-

H&A viewers don't show light leakage. They are not designed for that. They are simply symmetry veiwers. But way cool tools at that.
As far as I know the firescope is the only instrument that shows light leakage.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#18 @ 10-05-00 , 07:54 AM


Jonathan quote:
When a diamond's facets are acting as "windows" instead of "mirrors" you can see right through the facets (leakage). In darkfield illumination light is shining on the pavilion of a diamond ... just as it is in the firescope. Hence in Brad's picture you are seeing NOT LIGHT BEING REFLECTED FROM ABOVE.. but light coming up from beneath and in this particular pic, highligting the areas of leakage within the diamond FROM BEHIND.

If this is true then the pavilion mains are also showing light leakage, yet they are showing black in the firescope picture.

How can the leakage and the reflected light be showing the same thing? Simple question and simple answer would be appreciated.


Jan


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#19 @ 10-05-00 , 08:00 AM


Canadian Eh,
If you look at the picture that you posted on the other site, it looks like the part that you are pointing out is a reflection of the hearts, although they are not even in thickness or whiteness.
On the pictures of the analysis of the hearts and arrows diamond that Johnny Boy had started, on the hearts and arrows diamonds those are reflecting more on the outside edge of the diamond.

Imagine if you had a diamond that was more shallow on the crown angle that the outside edge of diamond would reflect more towards the center of the diamond.


That is what it looks like to me.

Jan


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[Edited by Jan on 10-05-2000.]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#20 @ 10-05-00 , 02:11 PM


Joe,
I know H&A viewers are not designed to show light leakage. Just look at this diamond. It is black where light leaks( according to fs pic). It is the anvils that leaks and they are black. And take a look to your own diamonds throug the viewer. I haven't tested yet, but I will test viewer with different bottoms.
Sibelius


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#21 @ 10-05-00 , 02:17 PM


Garry,
type your message to notepad, save it and use copy/paste to copy it here in this window I am writing now. If you loose it in prosess to post here, it is in your hard drive to copy it again.
I don't want loose your input. Try again.
Sibelius

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#22 @ 10-05-00 , 02:35 PM


Sibelius,

I understand what your saying about the black being seen in a h&a viewer. I too have pointed this out before, and we have to either be seeing through the diamond to the base, or the light is not returning to our eye from these areas. You have a good idea to change bases and then you could decide if it's a window, or light simply going somewhere other than upwards.

Look forward to your finding.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#23 @ 10-05-00 , 03:09 PM


Brad,

Here is four pictures what can to clarify the issue.
The first three we have obtained from 3D modellind of light ray trace in
diamond (3 different projections).
We started the ray from observer's eye to the point of diamond you called
"anvil" (white area at your picture). And we have got three rays exited from
diamond at several different directions.
The last picture has made to clarify the first three as simple scheme. It
illustrates that if you see white light at the anvil area, it can be due to
one of several different entered lights.
The diamond has proportions you posted to forum.

Yours,
Sergey,Yuri, Vladimir


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#24 @ 10-05-00 , 03:53 PM


S,Y,V,
It took at least three mins to me figure out these pics. (3 different projections)are the same pic, only different angle!!
And 5 more to look for where light coming from.
It is leakage, not direct, but leakage anyway.
Sergey,Yuri or Vladimir,
can any of you give me and to others permission to publish charts and other material found in MSU website. You don't have forum like this in your site to discuss of your work.
BTW how many diamcalks you have sold to Finland? Just curious.
Sibelius

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#25 @ 10-05-00 , 04:22 PM


Sibelius,

I want to say one rebellious thing: almost all (I think exactly all except one specific case - 45 deg. pavilion) rays that go into table have part that leaks through the pavilion. It can be larger or smaller, but it exists allways.

You can use materials from our site by any means, but with reference to the source.
We sell at least one DiamCalc to Finland (we usually do not know geografical location of our customers).

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