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Quote this post and reply to it Post#1 @ 09-01-00 , 09:17 PM


I`ve heard alot of talk on here about the branded Hearts and arrows being consistent. Let`s define this. Do we mean they are all cut to exactly the same proportions and get the same image each and every time?
I`ve seen various brands of hearts arrows, and the proportions and images are not always the same,they do vary.
I`ve seen grading of the diamonds in some brands within the same brand vary alot, such as even getting verygood to good on the polish and symmetry.

I really have to wonder when I here some say that the branded hearts and arrows are much better or more consistent than the non branded ones. I`ve seen non branded hearts and arrows that out perform the brands.
Just because a diamond has a name inscribed on the girdle doesn`t mean that it is going to rate better than others.

Diamonds are unique and individual unlike some other products.

Brad


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#2 @ 09-01-00 , 10:55 PM


Hi Jonathan I know what you are saying about some stones that aren`t true hearts and arrows being passed off.
What I was getting to was that the branded stones even can vary. Here is a Pic that johnny boy brought up before from a branded hearts and arrows of the same brand. I think both are nice but I`m not sure it would be considered consistent since the images are totally different.




I think all the brands can have some variences, we are talking diamonds not televisions. Some vary more than others and some can have very minor differences.
On The Aglaia brand from what I have seen so far have been very close, minor differences. They are very distict arrows and hearts. I haven`t seen any like the second photo above that has the more pronouced claws. Also everyone of their diamonds gets an A.G.S 0 cut.

On the non branded issue I have seen several nonbranded hearts and arrows that are even finer than the branded ones. Each stone is individual and putting a brand inscription on a girdle is`nt indicitive of a supberb stone. So it is best to consider each individual stone based on its merits, and not to rely solely on a brand name.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#3 @ 09-01-00 , 11:08 PM


I asked the cutter who I picked my diamond up from this question...i.e. brands vs unbranded. He said that the brand buyers hand pick their stones from the cutters according to their own parameters for quality....so that the branded stones could be slightly better, and more consistent, since they'd pass over the less "perfect" ones. Also, that the branded diamonds come from a variety of cutters, including him. However, that's not what I'm gathering from some of my reading lately...mainly that some of the branded stones come from one cutter who cuts only that brand for them. Of course, it could be a combination of the two methods, I suppose....some branded stones coming from multiple cutters....others coming from one cutter. Which of the brands have their own cutters, like EightStar? Or, maybe even deal with just one cutter, even though they cut other stones as well? Anybody know?

The point I'm trying to make...somewhere in this mess...is wouldn't the branded stones have to be "better" if picked from the best the cutter has to offer...leaving the lesser stones which didn't quite acheive the standard of quality required? I mean...are the unbranded stones the "leftovers"??


I find this confusing.


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#4 @ 09-01-00 , 11:20 PM


Hi Jonathan I was reading the last part of your post and it reminded me of something this week. I was also checking out a few stones for comparison on the brilliancescope this week in the same weight range. All three stones were A.G.S O cut grade, one was a hearts and arrows and the other two weren`t. The one that rated the highest was not a hearts and arrows.
Although the hearts and arrows are performing well, they do vary in light performance. Just because a diamond has an optical symmetry pattern also does not mean it`s going to rank better than another diamond in light performance. That is the beauty of diamonds they are all unique.

Brad


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#5 @ 09-01-00 , 11:34 PM


Brad-

What is your favorite branded diamond? You move so many of them. Are any cutters perfectly consistent?
JoeB

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#6 @ 09-01-00 , 11:35 PM


Hi Diamond lover Branding of diamonds has alot to do with marketing . Consumers can become more familiar with a name which builds cunsumers awareness. It doesn`t mean that you can expect diamonds to be identical in proportions and have the same exact hearts and arrows images each and every time.
There are many fine cutters of hearts and arrows that don`t market under a brand. Just because a diamond doesn`t have a label on it doesn`t mean it is leftover. This is one thing I was getting at.

Brad



[Edited by Brad on 09-01-2000.]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#7 @ 09-01-00 , 11:43 PM


Hi Joe I don`t know. I really look at each diamond as individual. I can`t say I have a favorite.

Brad


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#8 @ 09-02-00 , 12:40 AM


Sometimes I think there can be too much
focus on the images, instead of what the diamond actually looks like, or it`s light performance.
What are most people looking for in a diamond *Brilliance* *Dispersion* *Scintillation*
I think the one reason people buy some of the hearts and arrows diamonds is that they tend to expect them to be brighter.
For the most part they are but some perform higher than others.
I even had one instance where a stone that wasn`t a hearts and arrows performed higher on the brilliancescope,as compared to hearts and arrows this week.

The optical symmetry pattern is very pretty to look at,but it`s not going to indicate how well a diamonds light performance is.
The unique nature of diamonds is what makes them individual.

Brad



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Quote this post and reply to it Post#9 @ 09-02-00 , 07:27 AM


Hi Jonathan,
Actually this week, we did have a customer that brought in a stone that rated a 2 cut grade that they wanted to trade in. It didn't perform well on the brilliancescope at all. This stone was also a very high color and clarity, E VVS2. So you also can't go by the color and clarity.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#10 @ 09-02-00 , 07:40 AM


I deal with many cutters that claim that they cut stones for the branded companies, so maybe that is why we are finding some unbranded hearts and arrows that are performing better than branded ones?

Jan


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#11 @ 09-02-00 , 08:46 AM


Thanks for the excellent thread Brad and for all who jumped in! This is what I was getting at on the other thread-how is a consumer to know which stones to even send to rockdoc?

If the hearts and arrows pattern is pretty but not necessarily indicative of superior performance, why are they commanding a premium price? Is this just hype to consumers too?

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#12 @ 09-02-00 , 08:47 AM


Also, I asked in the past about the difference in the patterns of Johnny Boy's stone and the newer ones coming out. I thought there was a change in cutters. Was this incorrect?

lawmax


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#13 @ 09-02-00 , 09:15 AM


What we are saying is, that because a stone has a hearts and arrows pattern or an AGS000 doesn't mean that it will perform the best. We are just looking at the stones on an idividual basis on the brilliancescope.
Don't get me wrong, so far the hearts and arrows and super ideal cut diamonds do perform very well,as compared to non ideals, but some perform higher than others. We will be keeping track of the high performers to find a pattern of what they are measuring out and when we find the specific numbers, we will let everyone know.

I think Johnny Boy bought an eightstar. The picture of the two stones next to each other is from a post that Johnny Boy did a while back. This is the A Cut Above brand. The images are totally different. This is one of the points that Brad was trying to make about the consistency theory.


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#14 @ 09-02-00 , 09:19 AM


Jan, you're right! I posted pre-coffee-I meant JohhnyB.! I wondered if there had been a change in cutters between the times of those purchases.

lawmax

[Edited by lawmax on 09-02-2000.]

[Edited by lawmax on 09-02-2000.]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#15 @ 09-02-00 , 10:43 AM


LawMax,
I don't think the pictures were photos of JohnnyB's stone. These were posted on A Cut Above's website.

The point is, diamonds are unique. The images can vary even in the branded variety as pointed out.The grading can vary. The light performance can vary. So when the issue of consistency comes up from a consumer's perspective, this can be confusing. They would expect identical results. It's not going to happen. These are diamonds, not Sony televisions that are massed produced on an assembly line. After all Mother Nature created the crystal. Is the crystal exactly the same each and every time? Does the same cutter, cut each and every stone within a brand? Each cutter may have a slightly different interpetation. The cutter's are as individual as the crystals they are working with.

Example: When a cattle farmer branded his herd, were all the cows identically the same?


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#16 @ 09-02-00 , 10:59 AM



It does make sense that the best brands who contract work to outside cutters would cherry pick and quality inspect them.

Some brands reject many diamonds from contract cutters.

The brands likely do a high volume of biz with these cutters and therefore get the best deals, lowest prices and first pick.

The final test of performance is the human eye. No computer can match that.

All diamonds are individual and therefore must have the polishing adjusted to compensate for the uniqueness of each crystal regardless of two dimensional symmetry. This is what brings forth the maximun beauty from each rough crystal.

[Edited by jbacon on 09-02-2000.]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#17 @ 09-02-00 , 11:34 AM


Hi Joe,
You got a point here that I would like to expand on. Even the human eye can vary. What we see is also individual and not exactly the same. On the images above, some may like one pattern over the other. But to say that it is consistent would be far off because they are totally different. I like the uniqueness of diamonds.
One thing I like about the brilliancescope is that it evaluates light performance on an equal playing field.

If a branded product is using multiple manufacturers I doubt they could guarantee consistent results. Even within the same manufacturing facility the results can differ from individual cutter to cutter.

Joe, what do you think? Would the images in the above example be consistent?


Brad


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#18 @ 09-02-00 , 12:38 PM


Rockdoc I think you have a point on the *Hype issue*. I think there is a certain amount of hype that goes along with selling all the brands, otherwise how will they promote the product.
If certain cutters don`t want to get involved in all the promotional aspects of selling a branded product does this mean that they can`t cut exceptional diamonds? I don`t see that to be true
Consumers who get stuck on a brand name hoping that there is some type of added value to this may be limiting their options.
I think that diamonds should be judged on their individual merits, not by a label that is engraved on the girdle. Each and every diamond has it`s own unique characteristics.
I see some people on here that try to denigrate a stone just because it isn`t branded, and then tout that a certain brand is consistent when they vary . This is confusing consumers.


Brad


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#19 @ 09-02-00 , 12:44 PM


This is where I see so much value in the DPL reports. If each stone was graded this way than a consumer buying over the internet would have an easier way to choose!

lawmax

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#20 @ 09-03-00 , 05:05 AM


This thread is really good. Picked up a few more tidbits of information to fine tune my understanding of diamonds and the marketing behind them. Some things I've picked up:

1. There are a few types of consistency: consistency of the H&A image (how alike is the image), consistency of cutting (how alike are the proportions), and consistency of light performance (how alike is the brilliance, dispersion, scintillation).

2. Excellent H&A image does not guarantee better light performance than not-so-excellent H&A image.

3. A branded diamond is not necessarily better than an unbranded one.

4. It is perhaps impossible to achieve full consistency with diamonds because each is unique. Also the cutters are individual.

5. Each diamond has to be considered on its own merits.


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#21 @ 09-05-00 , 07:53 AM


I thought I would bring this topic back up as it had alot of very good information on it.


Jan


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#22 @ 09-05-00 , 02:30 PM


Quite some thought-provoking reading here! Great job, everyone!


Quick question. Let's say that a branding cutter finds a rough stone that he feels would match his criteria for cutting to his specifications. Let's say that he requires all of his diamonds to receive an AGS000 for them to get his coveted name. Then, once it is cut, given internal graining, etc. he cannot achieve an Ideal polish, but does achieve Ideal symmetry and angles. If it does not rate an AGS000, then he could not brand it as such. What does this cutter typically do with this diamond? Does he sell it as a non-branded stone? If he doesn't cut for Hearts and Arrows but only for brilliance or fire, then he couldn't even sell it as an H&A, even though it was VERY CLOSE to being a branded AGS000. Doesn't it seem that this poor, lonesome diamond is getting a bum deal?



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Quote this post and reply to it Post#23 @ 09-06-00 , 02:02 AM


My 2 cents. I think branding is a good thing for the consumer. If you can build a brand that is.

Think about Sony. You buy it now b/c you don't have to worry about it breaking and you know it is a quality product. However, you do buy many Sony products to build the name.

I'm not sure you could do that with diamonds b/c you don't buy one every year (well I don't - Diamond Lover might though
)Any thus it would take DeBeers level of advertising to build that name (and many years).

However, it would be nice for the average layperson not to have to educate themselves about diamonds so as not to get ripped off.

Just my thoughts. Hold the flaming for the hot dogs.

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