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Quote this post and reply to it Post#1 @ 06-26-00 , 08:31 PM


Let see if this can be cleared up. Is a bow tie such as the one pictured a good thing? Is this light return or light leakage?
_________________________ ____________________
Jonathan quote:
Actually just the opposite is true. The greatest light return in the marquise is at it's heart
.
_________________________ ____________________

The bowtie happens to be located at the center or heart of the diamond,but what do you think?
_________________________ ____________________
So, a bowtie is light return????????

_________________________ ____________________

SteveL quote:I would have to say that the marquise has a mix of light loss, and maybe some camera reflection. The marquise looks like a really poor cut.
Another 2 cents........
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Don`t be afraid to respond, there is always something new to be learned on Diamond Talk.
Iceman, RockDoc , Diamond expert , Author man, and others. We would love to hear your input.

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[Edited by Brad on 12-02-2000.]




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Quote this post and reply to it Post#2 @ 06-26-00 , 08:57 PM


I don't wish to be difficult, Brad...at least not at the moment although I must admit I *sometimes* wish to be difficult. Would you mind translating this posting into English or, if that is too difficult, perhaps into French or Italian? I even speak enough Spanish to understand if you prefer Spanish. Right now the JewelerTalk is waaaaaaay beyond me.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#3 @ 06-26-00 , 09:27 PM


Hey A Girl's Best Friend You can join in too it`s not just for jewelers. What do you think? Learning is fun


My french needs some work.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#4 @ 06-26-00 , 11:01 PM


Jonathan On this particular marquise which is an example of a pronounced dark bowtie pattern, is this light return, or light leakage?
Steve L thought so and so do I. This dark pattern is indicitive of optimum light return???

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#5 @ 06-26-00 , 11:10 PM


Jonathan Quote:. The heart of the marquise is where the MOST light return exists" There is gemological equipment that proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt but Brad's question was simply "Is there light leakage or light return at the heart of a marquise?"

No the question is does a marquise with a BOWTIE like this one showing light return or light leackage?
When we said BOWTIE this is what we were talking about. Not a well cut marquise.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#6 @ 06-26-00 , 11:14 PM


Okay...I'm sitting here staring at my .60 marquise diamond now.<s> It has a very minor bowtie effect, so it must be a shallow cut then? No darkness in the center of the stone, but I detect it at the edges of the center. I don't think my diamond is a particularly well cut stone, but from what I can tell, it's brightest at the center. Of course, this stone is set in a mounting...does that have any effect on the bow tie? The wierd thing is, the best scintillation (flashes when I move it around, right?)occurs right over the dark areas, and seems to be coming from the two upper girdle facets on either side of the center.

Those are my observations...not sure what they mean, though.

Ready to learn more...


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#7 @ 06-26-00 , 11:24 PM


Hiya, Brad-

My problem was that I didn't have a clue what the discussion was about. I knew you guys would let me play....I just didn't understand the game. Now I do. I think.

Jonathan says the black tie looks nice on the marquis. Jan says it doesn't. Jan feels white tie is more flattering to him. The marchioness is in the parlor eating bread and honey. The king wants a little bit of butter for his bread.

Do I have that correctly?

Si tu veux, nous pouvons parler francais.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#8 @ 06-26-00 , 11:24 PM


O.K. I`ll clarify again. This is an example of a BOWTIE out of the G.I.A. dictionary.
Does this indicate light return or light leakage? Per Photo

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#9 @ 06-26-00 , 11:30 PM


GBF Jen sa pas This is what I used to say when my French teacher called on me. I need to brush up on my french.


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#10 @ 06-26-00 , 11:33 PM


Gee, Brad-

You said that to your *teacher*!!? Did she slap you? You should control those impulses!

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#11 @ 06-27-00 , 12:21 AM


AGBF...

Je parle francais un peu..un *tres* peu...mais je le lis meilleur que je le parle.
Mon dieu, je stink!

Bon nuit!

Gigi
aka Amateur de diamont

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#12 @ 06-27-00 , 12:26 AM


Bonne nuit, mon amie! Demain, nous commencerons avec italien. D'accord?

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#13 @ 06-27-00 , 12:57 AM


Uh oh! (said with French accent) Mais oui!

Ciao!


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#14 @ 06-27-00 , 01:39 AM


I know that you may wish to remain politicly correct on you answer, and I understand. I appreciate your reply
RockDoc says :I think the heart of the marquise is WHERE the marquise returns the most light.... but if a bowtie is present, I always understood that this demonstrates light leakage...

This was a photo out of the G.I.A dictionary as an example of a BOWTIE.
The center of a diamond may be where a well cut Marquise displays light return primarily, but that is not the question. We were talking about a BOWTIE such as this one.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#15 @ 06-27-00 , 10:44 AM


Hey Iceman What do you think on this marquise pictured. Light return or light leakage?


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#16 @ 06-27-00 , 11:08 AM


What's LMBO? I thought I knew all the abbreviations like:

btw
otoh
roflmao
imo

Or is LMBO another of those furrin words?

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#17 @ 06-27-00 , 11:59 AM


To me the area which looks like a bowtie appears to be primarily red, indicating no light leakage in *most* of that area.


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#18 @ 06-27-00 , 01:42 PM


Jonathan,
I wouldn't be mad. I'm not alone here. Alot of people believe a bowtie such as the one that I showed in the photo to be light loss.

This is great! This has brought up lots of questions on the firescope. I have plenty to add later tonight. I have always thought this to be primarily an optical viewer for measuring optical symmetry patterns. I really didn't think it was an instrument to measure light return/leakage. If this BOWTIE is an indication of light return based on the firescope, then we have alot of contradictions here. Brodway mentioned that he saw a stone that looked well under the firescope but visually was poor. Kind of like the bowtie. Looks good under the firescope but visually not appealing. This explains alot.


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#19 @ 06-27-00 , 01:48 PM


Good feedback, Iceman!

I have another really stupid question. I mean really, really stupid. Does the area that displays the bowtie tend to also be the area of a marquise with the largest depth? It's been discussed that the bowtie effect is often diminished in shallow-cut fancies. So could this extra depth be the cause of less light leakage, ie. more stone for the light to pass through so less light leaking out? This, of course, wouldn't explain why the culet in Jonathan's first picture had high light leakage. According to my super-dumb theory, that should be the area with the greatest light return. But maybe there is some corrilation between the increased depth and the relation between the crown and pavilion angles.

Boy! Do I need to get out and see more stones! The only ones that I ever see are on the net. Bad for doing analysis, good for thinking up dumb questions!


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#20 @ 06-27-00 , 01:50 PM


Brad and Jonathan-

Regardless of whether the bowtie, usually regarded as a negative (being dark,) turns out to be the return of refracted light or whether it turns out that the Firescope measures something other than light return, I commend you on your dialogue. This is, indeed, opening up interesting dialogue. I am glad that we did not stick Eightstar related topics (like the Firescope) into a back room.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#21 @ 06-27-00 , 01:58 PM


Just to give some more factual information on a bow tie:

A bow tie can occur in shallow or very deep stones, those with long culets, or those in which the( pavilion facets are incorrectly oriented.)


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#22 @ 06-27-00 , 02:13 PM


Jonathan..
Im trying to understand what youre trying to point out...The light leakage at the tips or the bowtie?
It seems that the bowtie which originally was perceived as a negative aspect of a marquis, seems to indicate the greatest amount of light retention in the firescope...
The question is does the firescope only apply to round diamonds or does common knowledge regarding bowties wrong...maybe having bowtie is a good thing? at least thats what the firescope seems to indicate..
I wonder how it would apply to pear shapes tooo....

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#23 @ 06-27-00 , 02:27 PM


I have another really stupid question. I mean really, really stupid. Does the area that displays the bowtie tend to also be the area of a marquise with the largest depth? It's been discussed that the bowtie effect is often diminished in shallow-cut fancies. So could this extra depth be the cause of less light leakage, ie. more stone for the light to pass through so less light leaking out? This, of course, wouldn't explain why the culet in Jonathan's first picture had high light leakage. According to my super-dumb theory, that should be the area with the greatest light return. But maybe there is some corrilation between the increased depth and the relation between the crown and pavilion angles.
---------------------------------------------
Basnjas..
Your question is not dumb at all...There is no such thing as dumb questions...
I dont know why the firescope is showing light retention in areas you would never have guessed....It could be for many different reasons...
But whatever the reason is its good to see the board members intelligently sorting things out instead of coming on and claiming "The foundation is missing"...
It could be the firescope is not intended for fancy cuts...It could be that the way the firescope is constructed the deeper depth of the marquis is not conducive for accurate firescope analysis..
Im just as curious as anyone

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#24 @ 06-27-00 , 02:39 PM


brodway,

I guess that I can quote one of my favorite South Park phrases, "Now remember. There are no stupid questions. Only stupid people."


I think that even if all of the factual data regarding bowties shows them to be a good thing (ie. great light return), the bottom line is that they are ugly to look at and tend to be distracting from the beauty of the rest of the diamond.

Just one girl's opinion.


Jonathan,

Out of curiosity. What is the color/clarity of the first marquise that you posted?

And thank you very much for taking the time to show us all of these images. It really is a learning experience.




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Quote this post and reply to it Post#25 @ 06-27-00 , 02:49 PM


I think that even if all of the factual data regarding bowties shows them to be a good thing (ie. great light return), the bottom line is that they are ugly to look at and tend to be distracting from the beauty of the rest of the diamond
--------------------------------------------
Yes i agree with you...As Brad pointed out, when i saw a stone that had a 32 degree crown angle and it had a very nice firescope image, it lacked any kind of fire and dispersion that stood out on other ideals...
I still think Eighstar makes beautiful stones...The cut speaks to me more than the firescope image...It exhibited excellent visual characteristics, which can not be said for the other stone...
There seem to be contradicting issues here which i hope can be explained by our pros..

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