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Old aandalon
 
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3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#1 @ 11-19-08 , 10:55 PM


Hi all,

I declare myself completely ignorant regarding diamonds. I am the kind of person who cannot tell a real diamond from a CZ without equipment, which of course, I do not have myself. That's the reason why I have only bought from reputable Jewellers.

My dilemma started four months ago, when I found a ring I had received from my Grandpa as a gift. I had almost forgotten about it as it was my 15th Birthday present (15th birthdays are a big thing in the Country I live in) and I am now 23. I analysed the stone and thought it was beautiful. Again, I cannot tell a diamond from a CZ but "something" told me to check this ring further.

The next day, I went to a small Pawnshop. The owner spotted the ring, checked it with a loupe and asked me where I had got it. I told him it had been a gift and I only wanted to verify whether it was a diamond or not. The man started telling me that if I had bought the ring, the diamond wasn't very good quality. I asked if they bought diamonds, he said yes and offered $1,300 minus the gold mount because they didn't buy gold graded less than 18k, and my ring was 14k. He then said he could make an exception and buy the mount as well, offering a total of $1,000 in cash and then said he would give a signed appraisal. As I didn't use the ring, that sound like a good deal. I ended up not selling it, but I got the appraisal, which came out as the stone being 1.15 ct, clarity P3 colour Q cut round. He didn't unmount the stone or anything, and didn't even clean the ring or the stone before 'inspecting' it. For some reason, I didn't trust him, and walked out of the pawnshop with no cash money in my pocket (got charged $110 for the appraisal) and an appraisal estimating the rings replacement cost at $1300 USD.

A week passed by and I went to a professional gemologist. He also didn't unmount the stone, but said the appraisal given at the pawnshop was totally wrong. He did clean the ring thoroughly before inspecting it, though. He calculated the stone size to be between 1.75 and 1.85 ct. He inspected it using a different lens, which resembled a microscope and this time he gave me H colour and VS-2 clarity. He said he could be wrong within a range of colour and clarity. He gave a replacement cost of $27,200 USD, which I thought was crazy. He said that if I wanted to sell the diamond, an adequate price would be about half the replacement cost. He charged 1% of the appraisal, which was $ 272 USD.

Two months later, as the difference between the two appraisals was too huge, this time I went to a graduate GIA gemologist and prepared to get charged about 5 times what I had been charged previously. I explained my situation and this time, the stone was unmounted, and she graded colour, cut, symmetry, fluorescence, carat weight and clarity using several machines. The cut came out as 1.80 carat, clarity VS-1, excellent cut and no fluorescence. She charged $100 for the printed report, which, I was told, was not a GIA report, but had been made using GIA tools and software. To my disappointment, this time there was no appraisal in terms of money.

I now feel extremely confused, as I'm not sure which could be an accurate price for selling this diamond. I wouldn't like to charge too high a price to the person I sell it to, nor I would like to lose money by selling it too cheap, as I'm not in an urgent situation. I'm just looking for guidance to find a fair price for my diamond.

Thanks in advance to all of you who see my post and reply giving me some advice. Regards,

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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#2 @ 11-20-08 , 12:02 AM


I forgot to mention the colour. Last time it came out as F. Hopefully this will aid in guidance. Thanks!

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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#3 @ 11-20-08 , 11:27 AM


My advice to you since you have a substantial stone is to send it to GIA direct and get a GIA lab report. You can reach them at:
www.gia.edu. You will need that to sell the stone anyway. That way the stone will be accurately graded for color and clarity. Then with that in hand, I can give you an idea of what that type of stone is selling for. Please do this before you sell it so you don't get ripped off. Sounds like it might be a really nice stone.

Also stay away from pawn shops. Sound like that guy was trying to steal the stone from you.


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Last edited by Jan : 11-20-08 at 11:27 AM.
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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#4 @ 11-20-08 , 12:13 PM


Quote:
Originally Posted by aandalon
To my disappointment, this time there was no appraisal in terms of money.

I now feel extremely confused, as I'm not sure which could be an accurate price for selling this diamond.



Jan's advice is good, but the GIA will not give you any price information either. Most appraisers state prices which are considered an average retail price and what you would be able to get for the stone may vary widely from that depending on where you are and who is in your market area. Once you get an accurate quality opinion from the GIA you could post a scan back here and get a rough idea of what the stone could be sold for. I would second Jan's advice and go a bit farther by saying that you should avoid anyone offering both an appraisal and an offer to buy, they're a bit conflicting and self serving when presented by the same person.


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Last edited by Michael_E : 11-20-08 at 12:14 PM.
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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#5 @ 11-20-08 , 02:23 PM


Another question I have is: how much does GIA charge for their report? I have already spent about 480 USD in appraisals and reports and would like to be prepared for GIA costs.

The major issue I have is that I don't know anyone who could take the stone to the GIA labs and have it graded there. I wouldn't like to ship the stone via normal packaging companies, as I've heard too many horror stories to risk it on my diamond. There are some companies that offer insurance (with an additional cost of 3% out of the declared value) but I'm not sure can I apply for insurance when I don't really know the cost of the item. Not to mention it can also translate into the wrong shipping costs. If I state the value either as too high or too low and something happens, this can have pretty bad consequences.

So far I have the pawnshop appraisal, at 1,300, which after some research I can only call theft.. .then the gemologist appraisal which I deem too high for not even unmounting the stone, and then the GIA graduate report, which just states it is a 1.80 F colour VS-1, excellent cut and symmetry with no fluorescence, but nothing on the dollars. Is there some way I can get an estimate with these specs?

Its not urgent for me to sell it but offers from people here run very low as they seem to be more interested in gold weight rather than diamonds, and there isn't a lot of gold in the ring (about 5 grams).

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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#6 @ 11-20-08 , 02:36 PM


Figure a couple of hundred for the lab report. Hard to give you a price without the lab report because GIA does the girdle, table, depth, crown angle pavilion angle, polilsh and symmetry, and fluorescence etc. All of that figures into the cut grade. Also once it is graded by GIA there is no arguing the color and clarity grade.


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Last edited by Jan : 11-20-08 at 02:37 PM.
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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#7 @ 11-20-08 , 02:56 PM


Quote:
Originally Posted by aandalon
I wouldn't like to ship the stone via normal packaging companies, as I've heard too many horror stories to risk it on my diamond..... If I state the value either as too high or too low and something happens, this can have pretty bad consequences.


Ship it via USPS registered and insured mail. Ask the Post Office what happens if the package is lost or stolen. Ask also what sort of verification of value they need in order to make a payment to you if there's a problem, (who knows, you could end up "selling" it to the Post Office). With registered mail the package is under lock and key the whole way and is as safe as it gets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aandalon
.. .then the gemologist appraisal which I deem too high for not even unmounting the stone, and then the GIA graduate report, which just states it is a 1.80 F colour VS-1, excellent cut and symmetry with no fluorescence, but nothing on the dollars. Is there some way I can get an estimate with these specs?


You have an appraisal with an estimate which would not be very far off, assuming that the stone is graded by the GIA the same as it was by the GIA trained gemologist. You may think the price is too high, but it's pretty close. Best of luck !


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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#8 @ 11-20-08 , 08:44 PM


Thank you all for your advice. The info has certainly been helpful.

After a phone call with the last gemologist who gave me my diamond specs, I have decided to get it GIA certified. She said she could ship it there directly along with other diamonds she will need the certification for, and as I already have her report this could work as my diamond's ID so that I rest assured no one will be switching my diamond in the process.

She seems very honest, but I have a few last questions: first, she told me that if I give her the diamond tomorrow, I will have it back in three or four weeks. Question is: is this timing normal? second ...she will be charging 500 USD for the certificate plus shipping, is this a fair price? it seems a bit up to me. I know I could very well spend twice as much should I insure the package and send it myself, but maybe I could find another reputable gemologist/jeweller who can do the same work for me and charge me less for the service ... what do you all think?

Thanks a lot for your guidance and patience.

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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#9 @ 11-20-08 , 09:49 PM


Quote:
Originally Posted by aandalon
Thank you all for your advice. The info has certainly been helpful.

After a phone call with the last gemologist who gave me my diamond specs, I have decided to get it GIA certified. She said she could ship it there directly along with other diamonds she will need the certification for, and as I already have her report this could work as my diamond's ID so that I rest assured no one will be switching my diamond in the process.

She seems very honest, but I have a few last questions: first, she told me that if I give her the diamond tomorrow, I will have it back in three or four weeks. Question is: is this timing normal? second ...she will be charging 500 USD for the certificate plus shipping, is this a fair price? it seems a bit up to me. I know I could very well spend twice as much should I insure the package and send it myself, but maybe I could find another reputable gemologist/jeweller who can do the same work for me and charge me less for the service ... what do you all think?

Thanks a lot for your guidance and patience.



Here's the fee schedule for having the GIA do a report:
http://www.gia.edu/gemtradelab/3154...diamond_grading
You'd need to decide for yourself if having someone else ship the stone is worthwhile.


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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#10 @ 11-20-08 , 10:10 PM


I forgot to mention I'll also have report number inscription, which from the tables would be a $16 extra ... I'm not sure where the $500 are from, considering the grading is $110. Then again, that would be the cost if I lived in the States, as I do not, maybe the rest is all in shipping charges.

The reason why I'd rather have her ship the stone is that she has already seen it, kept my report on her records and given me a printed copy of it. I'd rather pay the full 500 in any case, than having my diamond switched by someone else.

Thanks for all the info and regards! I'll keep you posted on the status of my diamond

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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#11 @ 12-03-08 , 04:31 AM


listen. of the 3 people you have gone to it is best to trust the GIA gemologist. that GIA gemologist has no intentions of getting your ring for a cheap price.

NEVER! trust a pawnshop!!! they will tell you your jewelry is low quality to fool you and make a quick buck! even the professional gemilogist may be undervaluing your gem so that he could get it off your hands.

i would suggest you take the findings of the GIA gemologist and go to jewelry stores and inquire if they have the same type of gem and ask how much it is. use that price as reference.

good luck!!!

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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#12 @ 12-06-08 , 11:09 AM


The first thing you got was a bid, not an appraisal. You shouldnít have been charged for this at all.

The last was a grading report, not an appraisal (because there was no value conclusion or market description)

The middle one was at least the right service but it sounds like he/she didnít answer the right question. ĎReplacement valueí is largely irrelevant in your situation and since you were clear to the appraiser what you were trying to learn and he/she answered the wrong question anyway, I think you received a disservice. Incidentally, charging a fee thatís a percentage of the value conclusion is a huge conflict of interest and in most of the appraisal societies itís an ethics violation.

I agree with the above that for resale purposes on a stone of that size and grade, a report from GIA will be useful to you. Itís not that it sets the price, although it is useful for this, itís that it will be necessary for advertising purposes when you pitch it to a potential buyer, especially if you're going to try and sell directly to a consumer. After you get your GIA youíre still going to need to set a price. You can hire an appraiser to assist on this or you can do it yourself. To do it yourself, shop your competition. The Internet is full of diamond dealers who publish their prices and you need to look for something thatís comparable to yours. Usually cut grading is going to be the big issue to watch out for, especially for stones that werenít cut recently as the standards have changed in the last decade or so. Consumer-to-dealer cash sales happen at about Ĺ - ĺ of the lowest prices you find advertised online for similar stones. The difference will depend on how desirable a stone you have and random things like how much money the dealer has that day. Thatís where the negotiation happens. Start at ĺ and move down if you have to. The bad economy is making it that dealers don't much like to stock things like this and it drives down the cash prices they're willing to pay. If you're going to try and direct retail it, you can go up anywhere from 15% to 30% of your dealer price depending on your skills, connections and luck.

To be sure shipping can add up but itís easy enough to get a price. Call FedEx and CanadaPost and ask for the rates.

Neil

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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#13 @ 12-07-08 , 10:34 PM


Take Neil's Advise !!!

A GIA Cert is your best tool to sell with !!! with an honest Fair Market Value. Not a 26 thousand dollar appraisal !!!

The market is soft right now due to the economy and an appraiser with many years of experience is what Neil is.

As a guideline he suggests to try getting the internet price for the diamond and settle for 1/2 to 3/4 of that price in today's market is good advise.

Ignore your prior appraisals and take Neil's advise !!. If I can help with any questions, I will try to help answer them.

Arthur DeMello GG (GIA)






Quote:
Originally Posted by denverappraiser
The first thing you got was a bid, not an appraisal. You shouldnít have been charged for this at all.

The last was a grading report, not an appraisal (because there was no value conclusion or market description)

The middle one was at least the right service but it sounds like he/she didnít answer the right question. ĎReplacement valueí is largely irrelevant in your situation and since you were clear to the appraiser what you were trying to learn and he/she answered the wrong question anyway, I think you received a disservice. Incidentally, charging a fee thatís a percentage of the value conclusion is a huge conflict of interest and in most of the appraisal societies itís an ethics violation.

I agree with the above that for resale purposes on a stone of that size and grade, a report from GIA will be useful to you. Itís not that it sets the price, although it is useful for this, itís that it will be necessary for advertising purposes when you pitch it to a potential buyer, especially if you're going to try and sell directly to a consumer. After you get your GIA youíre still going to need to set a price. You can hire an appraiser to assist on this or you can do it yourself. To do it yourself, shop your competition. The Internet is full of diamond dealers who publish their prices and you need to look for something thatís comparable to yours. Usually cut grading is going to be the big issue to watch out for, especially for stones that werenít cut recently as the standards have changed in the last decade or so. Consumer-to-dealer cash sales happen at about Ĺ - ĺ of the lowest prices you find advertised online for similar stones. The difference will depend on how desirable a stone you have and random things like how much money the dealer has that day. Thatís where the negotiation happens. Start at ĺ and move down if you have to. The bad economy is making it that dealers don't much like to stock things like this and it drives down the cash prices they're willing to pay. If you're going to try and direct retail it, you can go up anywhere from 15% to 30% of your dealer price depending on your skills, connections and luck.

To be sure shipping can add up but itís easy enough to get a price. Call FedEx and CanadaPost and ask for the rates.

Neil


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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#14 @ 12-08-08 , 12:28 AM


Greetings,

Thank you so much for your kind replies and all the advice you've given me. I really appreciate it. My stone will be coming back from the GIA labs by Dec 20th, hopefully. I will post the specs when I get it back and let you know.

I'm not really sure on what to do with the ring, but I'd like to have an accurate market price for it, in case I decide on selling it later. I'm aware that the gemologist's appraisal is inflated (so that he could charge more for it) but from looking at the specs by both gemologists, it sure isn't worth the $1,000 that the pawnshop owner was offering.

Thank you very much for your help. Regards,

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Last update on this story.. .
Quote this post and reply to it Post#15 @ 02-18-09 , 05:54 AM


Hi all!!

Hope you guys had very nice and sparkly holidays! I went on vacation and came back to an extremely busy work schedule, that's why I hadn't got the time to post the last and final update of this story.

My stone came back from GIA a couple weeks later than I was expecting it. It was supposed to be here by Dec. 20th, max. but I got it back until January 6th. with the following stats:

Shape and Cutting style: Round brilliant
Measurements: 7.74-7.80 x 4.85 mm
Carat weight: 1.81 carat
Color grade: E
Clarity grade: VS1
Cut grade: Excellent
Finish
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: none

and to think I was that close to getting just a thousand in cash at that pawnshop. Needless to say, there is no chance in hell I'll be selling it now after this 6-month, 998-dollar educating experience.

Thanks to all who replied for their help and guidance!

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Re: 3 different appraisals: confused!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#16 @ 02-18-09 , 03:13 PM


Sounds like it's a gorgeous diamond.........I'm glad you didn't get taken advantage of!

Amy


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