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Quote this post and reply to it Post#76 @ 10-03-00 , 10:52 AM


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by NDnewbie:


(much snippage)

for now i've got to run, another person is considering an 8* in colorado and another in new jersey and i have to keep them from doing that (i can sense they are).

NDnewbie
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My, God, NDN! I missed this line in the first reading! You are so funny!

AGBF



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Quote this post and reply to it Post#77 @ 10-03-00 , 11:35 AM


Dave-

Thank you for your voice of reason.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#78 @ 10-03-00 , 12:02 PM


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by daveR:


I think that is all that was said by rockdoc or jbacon (neither one is a dealer, btw -- I believe rockdoc said previously that jbacon is not a dealer at the moment).

Thanks,
Dave
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Dave-It is news to me that JoeB is not a dealer "at the moment". Do you know what that means? I don't. I certainly don't hold *you* responsible for using the phrase if someone told it to you. I just wonder what it *means*. Might it mean he isn't ringing up a sale as we speak? Or does it mean he couldn't sell you an Eightstar if approached?

My point is that I believe this is all about money. I believe Joe promotes Eightstar as he does (i.e. vituperatively) because he sells it.

Also: it is quite unfair to lump poor NDN with Joe for engaging with him! First of all, Joe has been at this forever, but NDN is brand new to the controversy. Second of all, Joe started going ballistic on NDN without provocation. Third of all, every newbie should be entitled to go through a ritual Eighstar Gala at least once without being harshly judged as combative!!!!

AGBF


$$$$$$$$$

$$$$$$$$$
$$$$$$$$$JoeB V. NDN

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#79 @ 10-03-00 , 12:29 PM


dave -- i know you liked your analogy so let me continue on with it and expand. say, i'm buying a car and am choosing b/w that lexus and acura. since i know i want luxury, i know which cars are out there. i also know what i want and what is in my budget.

so now i think i've decided on a lexus GS300 and am just making sure that slight ding on the door will be okay. so i ask a group of people who know about cars for advice on this ding.

suddenly one of the people who sells mercedes comes in and says i should check them out. i know what mercedes offers and know i'd have to get an older one or give up something else to afford it. but now i start feeling like i havent gotten the nicest car b/c it's not mercedes.

i'm not trying to say someone shouldnt buy an 8* b/c they are too expensive nor would i say that about mercedes. i just dont feel people should feel pressured or compelled to buy something outside their budget or feel they have bought a diamond that isnt good enough b/c it's not 8*.

so if i see someone that might be pressured and was already happy, i'm going to jump in. if that means taking personal attacks against me, so be it.

as for joe, he doesnt deal in 8* yet b/c he doesnt have the startup dough for it. there's nothing wrong with that b/c it is pretty darn expensive to become a dealer. but i'm pretty sure he's trying to build so that he can become a dealer (and i'd be more than happy to be corrected if that is wrong). either way, he definitely pushes the 8* and that is fine.

but i'll be here for the little guy who might not be able to afford the 8* or any other diamond for that matter. i dont believe anyone should feel their diamond is second best to any other one. if they're looking for a diamond and have a certain budget and are being charged too much for a non-ideal, i like seeing someone jump in and let them know it's not ideal and can find something closer to ideal within that budget.

anyway, i'll roll with the punches and wont let anyone try to take me down.

NDnewbie


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#80 @ 10-03-00 , 04:38 PM


Iceman,

I believe you're correct on the I1 Eightstar. I saw one while standing beside the protype of the new scope. Round white inclusion off to one side under the table. I'm sure they have a significant collection of interesting test stones done to see what the effect would be.

They also have no choice but to buy rough that may turn out to be included. You get what you get in a parcel and that includes shapes and qualities that are not what's wanted.


[Edited by Jamesd on 10-03-2000.]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#81 @ 10-03-00 , 05:50 PM


daveR
Very nice post. Well said.

Agbf,
What happens when you become a dealer? Have I ever done anything to you, or even had a thread run wild with you and I slamming each other? Please don't group all as one based on your feelings of some......Thanx!

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#82 @ 10-03-00 , 06:27 PM


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Iceman:
DaveR -

Did you notice The Iceman didnt jump in on this one, your post is right.


The Iceman
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, will wonders never cease? First the other day Diamond Lover and I *agreed* on something, now you and I *disagree*, Ice!


I *respectfully* disagree that Dave was right. The dynamic as it played out last night was not as he described it. I was here and I know.

The scenario was *not* that a consumer walked in and was advised "not to research" an Eightstar!!!!!!!!
A consumer who was worried he would not make the right choice in a diamond voiced that concern. He was looking at AGS 000s and said if someone could just tell him there *wasn't* one perfect diamond that he would rest easier. I told him that. He was fine with that and responded back with a warm story of an old Italian jeweler whom he had met who actually *liked* wider tables.

JoeB then went ballistic, making snide comments about how the Italian jeweler wanted to sell him something; that the Europeans like wide tables because it makes sales easier; and finally launched into a full-blown tirade complete with foaming at the mouth at NDNewbie for trying to kill his sales. He demanded to know why NDNewbie had this need to kill Eightstar sales. It was *wild*.

Dave may be right on the technical aspects of what the Eightstar does and doesn't do, but if he was here for the blow-out, he was quiet about it! It was what I so much *detest* about Eightstar "marketing" techniques.

SteveL, I do not think I owe you an apology. I have not said a word against you as an individual. If I say I dislike Eightstar "marketing" techniques and you choose to identify with the Eightstar dealers, that is not my fault. I believe they do exactly what I say they do. You choose to identify with them and say that I am describing you. That is *your* choice. You are free either to disassociate yourself from those techniques or to refute my assertions as incorrect.

AGBF



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Quote this post and reply to it Post#83 @ 10-03-00 , 11:21 PM


AGBF,

I think you are a reasonable person judging from most posts that I have read here (perhaps I don't post much, but I do read most threads beginning to end), but this one makes no sense! For one, someone doesn't have to be here for the action at the time, it's all posted in the messages, it really is easy to start reading from the beginning of the thread all the way to the end for a blow by blow slow motion replay -- you should give it a try. Much like everyone can decide whether an ideal or 8* is worth the premium, everyone can read all the messages and decide who attacked who. Go back and re-read the messages in case you can't remember.

NDnewbie,
While I appreciate your trying to extend my anology, I think that the anology that you offer could apply to a discussion of clarity is VVS1 worth the premium over VVS2. That is probably an experts opinion is useful, as the difference really isn't visible to the naked eye without a loupe, but does carry a premium. Yet someone might feel that they need to have the best even if it's not the best value, others will pick an SI1. Same with that scratched up car, a perfectionist may decide to pay the premium to avoid it, someone more value concious may decide that it isn't a big deal. I think you well know that this anology the way you present it doesn't work.

Thanks,
Dave


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#84 @ 10-03-00 , 11:37 PM


AGBF...

One of the reasons i have not interjected into this discussion is because ive gone through this at least on 3 occassions...

Every single time, after 100 posts, i come to the same conclusion....We will never agree on the topic...

Yes, i see the difference between the Eighstar and the other ideals....The difference is subtle rather than drastic....The difference is something that has to be appreciated by the person looking at it....The decision whether a premium over the ideal is worth it also lies with the consumer considering the purchase...

Theres nothing wrong to look at different diamonds and decide for yourself....The only drawback is when you go out and see something that you think is a better choice to only feel sorry that you did because you know that you cant afford it....Otherwise i think its wise for every consumer to go out and see as much as they can so many years down the line, they know that they still made the best choice at the time of the purchase.......


My 2 cents...




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Quote this post and reply to it Post#85 @ 10-04-00 , 03:03 AM


dave -- the analogy i used was to describe the situation we had here. we had a beautiful stone with a "superficial feather." that is why i used the ding on the car. and since you say you read all of the threads from top to bottom you know i've already stated that a premium is charged for VVS1 over VVS2 and such and that is something else that a consumer will choose.

i am already tired of the argument b/c it has been going on for too many threads already and each time is beaten into the ground with the exact same results. last night i took a couple attacks and so i stayed around longer than i usually would.

all i wanted to do was to help one person realize that dont HAVE to have an 8* and/or feel bad about getting something "less" than an 8*. and of course that sparked off the usual 8* debate that always ends the same.

in the end it remains the same. for some they need the D,IF,8*,or even just the VVS1. some are willing to pay the premiums, some arent. it's the consumers' choice and we're just informing. i have nothing against 8* and think it is a wonderful stone. i just dont appreciate how it is pushed on some.
how many people do you know ask someone why they dont get that VVS1 over the VVS2 even though there's no difference to the naked eye? it's the example you used and so i use it here. you hear the same few always jump in and say, "why dont you check out the 8*." and that is fine. but do you ever hear, "you know, you should really consider a VVS1 over that VS1 you are considering"?

anyway, this has been dragged on long enough. 8* is good but has a very high premium. there is obviously a market for the 8* or it wouldnt still be producing them today. so again, we'll just agree to disagree.

of course, dont be surprised if i jump in again when someone tries to push the 8* and make someone feel bad for "just" buying an unbranded H&A beautiful stone.

and dave, if you are going to try to nit-pick each analogy, at least try to get the basic idea of it so you dont sound silly. you can say that my analogy is full of holes but guess what, it's an analogy comparing cars and diamonds, it's not going to be perfect. it was meant to prove a point and it was obviously missed.

NDnewbie


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#86 @ 10-04-00 , 09:18 AM


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by daveR:
AGBF,

I think you are a reasonable person judging from most posts that I have read here (perhaps I don't post much, but I do read most threads beginning to end), but this one makes no sense! For one, someone doesn't have to be here for the action at the time, it's all posted in the messages, it really is easy to start reading from the beginning of the thread all the way to the end for a blow by blow slow motion replay -- you should give it a try. Much like everyone can decide whether an ideal or 8* is worth the premium, everyone can read all the messages and decide who attacked who. Go back and re-read the messages in case you can't remember.

(snip of comment to NDNewbie)

Thanks,
Dave
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dave,

I began to read this posting expecting you to tell me where the thread ("this one") "(made) no sense". In other words, I thought you would go on to refute my reasoning on some point(s).

Instead all you did was to tell me that one can read a thread from beginning to end; that one need not be here to understand a thread *if* he reads it fully; and that I should try it (reading a thread through) sometime.

I am not wild about the implication that I appear never to have read a thread all the way through, but you are certainly entitled to hold the opinion of me that you do.

The reason I summarized the thread in this case was not that I was unaware that one could read it, but because I would never *expect* anyone to go back and read a four page thread to get at the dynamics *I* was trying to say.

In this case, I am glad I summarized the points I did because-despite my having done so-you still missed the point. (As had Ice.)

NDN said it very, very well above. If a consumer comes on here saying he wants a VVS2 he is not instantly barraged by **Dealers of the VVS1** telling him to check it out, that he *OWES* itself to himself to check out the VVS1!

It is the *marketing* of Eightstar which has driven me absolutely around the bend here, *not* the stone! If consumer reaction here was being monitored as consumer reaction to television ads is, Eightstar would have changed strategies months ago. People exposed to this for too long get *turned off* to the product because they hate the "ads" so much.

Did you ever hear a commercial on the radio or see one on television that annoyed you so much you vowed *NEVER*, under *any* circumstances, to buy the product? Once or twice in my life, I have. Eightstar marketing grates on me in a very similar way.

AGBF




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Quote this post and reply to it Post#87 @ 10-04-00 , 02:37 PM


Which of these combinations should be unacceptable:

Mentioning EightStar to those considering H&A? Branded H&A?

Mentioning branded H&A to those considering H&A? Ideal?

Mentioning H&A to those considering ideal? Non-ideal?

Mentioning a preference for AGS or GIA over EGL or other labs?

Mentioning VS2 to those considering SI1.

All are product differences that a consumer may or may not consider significant but can usefuly be made aware of. All are routinely done here and I only see EightStar section being routinely criticised even though it's a difference some consumers can see.

If a consumer is fairly close to another type of product quality it's worth telling the consumer about it.

I'll worry about EightStar after the dealers of H&A stop mentioning it to those looking for ideals.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#88 @ 10-04-00 , 04:56 PM


Wow, did I startall this???

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#89 @ 10-04-00 , 05:06 PM


AGBF,
I read your post on the other thread, and Thank You! What I was referring to was above where you posted

"I worry a lot about what happens when one begins to *sell* them...."

I just thought the word *one* (i took as all) could have been *some*......... No prob, and I enjoy reading all your post.

Lets continue the thread........

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#90 @ 10-04-00 , 05:10 PM


So Wacky, it's your fault!

Just kidding, this has gone around from time to time for most of the year. You can add up some posting numbers rather quick


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#91 @ 10-06-00 , 12:37 AM


Phew! This thread is another explosion. Both JoeB and NDnewbie must have racked up 100 new posts!
I must participate in more of these slug fests just so I can catch up with Ice and Rockdoc


AGBF...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>I have an AGS 000 that's a VS and an F. It's larger than Wacky's and cost many thousands less than the eightstar he mentioned. Maybe $15,000 for a 1.67. It's *fabulous*. I would *never* pay another $11,000 to get an eightstar!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a note, the figure of $26,000 mentioned by Wacky was for a Hearts on Fire. He wrote (emphasis is mine):

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>I had a dealer quote me a price for a similar branded hearts on fire diamond 26,000.00, but he said he would work with me a little...I don't think so!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll bet Wacky never expected his "simple" question to turn out this way


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#92 @ 06-29-01 , 02:11 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by jbacon
Wacky-

A feather/fracture at the girdle's edge is one to avoid if the feather reaches the surface or has a glassy or fuzzy appearance.



What does glassy look like - does this include a break where the stone still sparkles at the inclusion or is glassy without any sparkle?

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#93 @ 07-04-01 , 12:41 PM


I know it sounds like a silly question but what does a glassy inclusion look like - does the break sparkle or not?

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#94 @ 07-04-01 , 03:44 PM


I am not sure what joe means by glassy look but I guess he is describing a fracture typical to broken glass.

just like a line in a windscreen.
S

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#95 @ 07-04-01 , 04:00 PM


Sibelius

That is what I was thinking, but all inclusions look similar to broken glass don't they as a diamond is clear?

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#96 @ 07-04-01 , 05:01 PM


Jean,

You must know there is all sorts of inclusions, class like is just one variation of feather.

S

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#97 @ 07-05-01 , 11:56 AM


"I would comprmise color long before I would comprmise on cut."
---------------------------
so you would make a BIG compromise in color to get a very very slight improvement in light performance?

you would take an R color to afford 1% more light return?

a minor difference in cut is no more inherently important than a minor difference in clarity, color, or carat.

the difference between 99% light return and 98% light return may be as difficult to detect as the difference between a d and an e color. (maybe even 99% versus 90% for that matter!).
so obviously every cut difference is not necessarily any more inherently important than any color, clarity, or carat difference. it therefore makes no sense to make the blanket statement that cut is the most important, except when meaning it is the most important to YOU.

it is just a matter of personal preference. what constitutes minor vs major differences in any of the C's will vary according to personal preference, but none is inherently King over the other.



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Quote this post and reply to it Post#98 @ 07-10-01 , 02:59 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by jbacon
Wacky-

A feather/fracture at the girdle's edge is one to avoid if the feather reaches the surface or has a glassy or fuzzy appearance.



QUESTION FOR JBacon -

Is this answer relevant if the stone was a VS2 - is this not more appropriate to SI2 and down type stones.

As AGBF said if the stone is a VS2 the feather should not affect it should it??

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#99 @ 07-10-01 , 03:01 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by A Girl's Best Friend
I have assumed that no inclusion on a VS clarity diamond graded by a reputable lab (i.e. GIA or AGS) would compromise the integrity of the diamond. By definition, it must be invisible!! Therefore, I would have thought the simple answer to Wacky would be, no: there's no problem with any inclusion although one on the side is better as it can *also* be covered with a prong! Am I missing something?

I have an AGS 000 that's a VS and an F. It's larger than Wacky's and cost many thousands less than the eightstar he mentioned. Maybe $15,000 for a 1.67. It's *fabulous*. I would *never* pay another $11,000 to get an eightstar!

Uh oh. Deja vu!

AGBF



This is AGBF response from earlier is this not more correct for a VS stone?????

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#100 @ 07-10-01 , 07:27 PM


?

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