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Old 43facets
 
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Quote this post and reply to it Post#151 @ 08-20-02 , 05:42 PM


As a old married women, I want you all (men about to propose) to understand what I am saying. It's not about YOU. Please be assured you intentions are honorable that you want the best for her and you. But, most women see things in a different light. Diamonds are a women's macho. I am not advocating going off the deep end and going I1 stone....and if it suits you best not even SI1. But, you will get just as much sparkle from an F stone VS1 or 2 stone. When women show their stone and compare with friends, they don't talk about how its D IF (quite frankly most won't believe you anyway). They look at the size - period. As long as a stone is within certain parameters (of good/great cut, color, clarity) NONE of her friends will care or notice the fact that it is D IF - only that it is smaller than theirs (and then enters in the nanny nanny boo boo syndrome).

You may say "I don't care" and I am sure she will be just be pleased at the commitment.........but she will want the bigger stone. It's all about her - not your views - she has to wear it and be proud of it.

She may intially agree with you in theory and think you are sweet - but presented w/ the option of two stones (without anyones influence) she will pick the larger F VS1/2 stone. Put it to the taste test.......compare not two stone of NOT equal carat weight ...but of equal price. Smaller DIF, Larger FVS1 stone.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#152 @ 08-20-02 , 06:11 PM


My financee's diamond is a VS1. I have tried for hours to find the inclusions with a 10X loupe. Our jeweler couldn't find them either. The jeweler knew that she had a flawless diamond in stock that was within .01 ct. of ours and she wouldn't let me buy it until she double checked that they didn't get switched. Sometimes I still wonder if we got the flawless diamond.

Needless to say, I'm glad that we didn't settle for a smaller, more expensive VVS1.

Last edited by photogold : 08-20-02 at 06:29 PM.
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Quote this post and reply to it Post#153 @ 08-20-02 , 06:27 PM


I'm totally in agreement with 43facets!
Those were my sentiments exactly when choosing my engagement stone, I ended up with a slightly larger E VS2 versus a G VVS1 because I was more concerned about color and size, and couldn't see the difference between the VVS1 and VS2. I have to add that the shape of the stone makes a difference too. If I were to buy an Emerald or other step-cut stone, I might prefer a higher clarity because the flaws may be more visible.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#154 @ 08-20-02 , 07:16 PM


Yes, an emerald stone is a different animal..clarity & color is more important to an extent...but you guys make sure you understand that a 1 c emerald cut is going to look smaller than a 1 c round.....even if she says she has her heart set on one....do a taste test....she may want the smaller looking emerald stone.....but most don't really understand the conscequences of their request.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#155 @ 08-20-02 , 08:07 PM


As a woman I have to disagree about the size issue, at least when it comes to what I would want. I would choose D IF or FL or VVS small stone over a larger stone with less clarity or a lower color. It is totaly a psychological thing, but it is what I want. To me size does not matter at all when it comes to diamonds...it is the beauty of the stones, no matter how small, and to me White as white and clear as clear is what I find beautiful.


When I was looking for my diamond studs I was set on D VVS1 minimum. For the price I could have gotten bigger for sure than the .46 total weight that they are, but I wouldn't have been happy at all. Fortunately the person who bought them for me, knew what I wanted, color, cut and clarity over size. And so far I haven't suffered from the "shrinking diamond syndrome"...they are perfect and always will be perfect to me.

We each have our preferences and luckily there are stones out there for all of us.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#156 @ 08-20-02 , 08:11 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by pp1578
AHH yes,...In addition i would not put much trust in a woman who only cares about what size diamond she gets... makes me happy


AHH yes,

But would she put much trust in a man who only cares about what clarity diamond he gets...hmnnn?

I think the sentiment could be used for and against.

Still, the psychology of a major purchase always boils down to what a person can afford to buy, while still being able to walk away content. It sounds to me like you're big on good clarity, and luckily, there are stones of high clarity waiting for a person just such as you.

I agree with 43 (and others) when I say that the common sense side of me tells me that the bigger diamond, (albeit less clear) is the way to go. But eventually all of us have to draw the line of how low we will go, and in this case PP just draws his line incredibly high. Hopefully his lady agrees with him. I'm inclined to think that most would not, and for newbies checking into this, all I can recommend is to heed 43's advice.

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Twist to the argument
Quote this post and reply to it Post#157 @ 08-20-02 , 08:48 PM


Well, I have heard people say " I want to buy absolutely the best, absolutely the flawless diamond for her, just the way she is"

To me they are missing the whole point.

Well, my reasoning while buying a diamond for my fiance was as follows: I would like to buy her a diamond with a flawless cut, in other words the best possible cut. About clarity, well, eye-clean would be fine.

An Ideal cut for an Ideal person.

This is my reasoning for putting cut before clarity. What is a diamond but a piece of carbon? A piece of coal. Rare indeed. But they are a lot of things which are rare but rare doesn't mean beautiful. A Penguin dung is rare but that doesn't mean its beautiful! (sorry for the diversion.) What makes a piece of coal beautiful? What brings out the beauty of a stone? its the cut. Its the man's genius that brings out the beauty/sparkle life of a stone. Beautiful diamond is a human creation. Nature just provides the raw material. The crystal carbon. Nothing more. Its the cutter who brings out the beauty. Thats the genius. (For those who don't agree, I suggest they buy a rough diamond and give that as present to their SOs. : ) Thus I would like to give her a diamond that sparkles the most and has the best cut. Yes, I agree, I wouldn't buy anything that looks ugly due to inclusions. But inclusions are a secondary thing.


I would again like to stress. The importance of a cut, the importance of human endeavour in creating beauty. There is a difference b/w mona lisa and a bucket of paint. There is a difference b/w blocks of steel and porche. Nobody in the right mind buys a block of 100% pure iron and say yooohoooo! check out what I here! 100% Pure iron!

anyways, enough said.

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Yes!!!
Quote this post and reply to it Post#158 @ 08-21-02 , 02:06 AM


I totally agree with wndrful. How many times are couples actually going to look at the diamond through a loupe?

I don't think I would ever buy an IF diamond? It just seems like such a waste of money for the common person. I have a 1.10 princess stone VS1 and I still can't find the inclusion???

The cut is everything!!!!

Cherie

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#159 @ 08-21-02 , 03:02 AM


Oh yes i though the importance of the cut was implied. The cut is most important AGS 0 or one of the "super ideals" And incidently she does agree with my theories on quality this is how I am about most things. I gave her a list of several different diamond choices, different shapes (prior to discovering DT), sizes, colors, clarity even cut info. I went with the pretence that a friend of mine wanted a womans opinion on what is important in a diamond. If she suspected anything i could not tell. I had her rate them from 1-whatever it was. Throught the list she almost exclusivly chose the higher quality over larger stones regardless of the shape, also clarity was more important the color neither of us had any idea about cut at teh time so that was not much of a consideration at the time (but it became one prior to purchase). The minimums on the list were VS2 clarity and J color. Sizes ranged from .5 to just over 1 carat if i remember correctly. oh yeah and i left off the prices so that would not influence the rating process. I went with her #1 choice, It was my second choice as well. This may seem a little analytical but i wanted to be sure we were thinking alike on what i wanted and what she invisioned as her E-ring

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#160 @ 08-21-02 , 03:44 AM


Hey pp1578,

I don't think you're being over analytical. I think your process is a great idea!! I'm glad I'm not a guy trying to pick out an E-ring. I really feel for all those guys out there trying to pick out the perfect ring when they don't really know what their GF wants?? Gosh, that has to be hard... I had a hard time picking out my ring and it was FOR ME, I can only imagine what it has to be like to pick out something for someone else????

Good Luck to all!!!

Cherie

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#161 @ 08-21-02 , 03:49 AM


And wndrful,

you should copyright that quote...!!!

"An Ideal cut for an Ideal person"

What a great marketing tool that would be....

Cherie

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#162 @ 08-21-02 , 09:18 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by pp1578
oh yeah and i left off the prices so that would not influence the rating process.


But the PRICE is the whole point. Based on preference alone w/ no cost factor.......what person (and your soon to be fiance sounds like no dummy) is NOT going to pick the best one. Also, without viewing the sizes side by side it's difficult to understand the ramifications of her preferences.

Listen, or you can chose not to listen - I speak from experience. Do you want her to wear this stone....say when she is in her 30's. I don't know your stature in life and this may sound really snobby.....but I am a realist. There is a good chance that she probably will not wear that 1/2 carat ring. It will be reset; and, you will either be buying a larger diamond for her or she just will wear her wedding band.

O.K. here's experience from three different people who have been married +/- 20 years.

#1 Received an Ideal cut (.5 on the HCA) F VS1 .70 diamond....It is reset and worn on the left hand. Replaced w/ a 1.25 ct. family ring after about 7 or 8 years. Replaced w/ a 3 carat Diamond 20 years after engagement.

#2 Received a sapphire & diamond band (very beautiful). Fiance could not afford the larger stone of her choice. They agreed they would wait until he graduated and established his practice. 10 years later they prurchased a G VS2 1.5 c RB stone. It is stunning.

#3 Received a poorly cut poor quality .85 Ct. stone. 20 years later.....never wears it - only wears a wedding band.

It may sound like I am materialistic. Honestly, I am not.
...just trying to show a mature perpective.

At the time when you begin to talk of diamonds, everyone starts off wanting the best....this is a noble thought....but ...think about it. And, if at the end of the day, she tries on two stone (make sure both are cut well) and prefers the smaller one - more power to you.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#163 @ 08-21-02 , 07:17 PM


Unfortunately, I think 43facets is right. And by that I'm saying that not only am I sure she's right for her own social circle (obviously), but with respect to most women as well.

It sounds romantic to think that a woman will love whatever we men buy her, and she will, but there's lots of outside social pressure. Most women are constantly making comparisons among themselves, and diamonds are a focus of comparison. In general, the bigger the better. My impression is that to a woman, the phrase "look at the rock she has on her finger" feels similar to how a man would feel if somone said "look at the muscles on that frame". A humble, happy, and self-assured woman can rise above this, but the outside pressure will still be there. Size is #1 for most women, assuming the color and cut are good.

Johnny

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#164 @ 08-21-02 , 08:40 PM


OK you all win, I'll just get a 4 carat CZ and call it a day, after all who will know, and it WILL be very beautiful. And at one point she may want to be a Liberache impersonator who knows

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#165 @ 08-22-02 , 10:06 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by pp1578
OK you all win, I'll just get a 4 carat CZ and call it a day, after all who will know, and it WILL be very beautiful. And at one point she may want to be a Liberache impersonator who knows


Sorry, but this is a silly comment. My point is you should consider her feelings and look to the future. I would hold little creedence to a women who talks hypothecally; and have not had the experience of going through the whole thing of presenting the engagement ring to their circle of friends & family. I did not advocate going to an inferior stone....just a larger one that will hold muster to anyone elses stone - once set! Women feel like it is O.K. to comment on someone's rock. There are alot of emotions.....one of jealousy of the engagement in general (that one is the - when I get engaged my boyfriend will give me a larger rock - translation......little green monster - how come I can't get my BF to commit) - oh I could go on. Am I proud of this fact about women...NO.

Do what you feel is right ...just think about her - this ring has little to do with you.

That said, ....I am #1 in the senario above...while we weren't perfectionist....my .70 F stone is pretty incredible - at the time w/in our budget (not having 2 nickles to rub together) WE decided to go for the smaller quality stone.....but I had friends who received larger BAD looking stones (way off the H VS1 side)....much to my dismay - the larger stones recieved all the attention...I felt like my stone was Charlie Brown's Christmas tree. I'm a very secure person - always have been....but this was disheartening. How do you say...but my stone is far superiour to hers......my point is YOU DON'T. You just don't talk about the fact that it D IF....Trust me, no one cares.

But, in your defense, I look back w/ no regret because it makes an awsome ring to wear on my left hand. I just outgrew the stone.

Diamonds are age appropriate. I would never suggest someone in their 20's to buy a 3 carat ring - even if they had all the money in the world. But, just consider size to be pretty important to a women.

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two cents
Quote this post and reply to it Post#166 @ 08-22-02 , 12:42 PM


I can understand that your friends with bigger stone get more attention. I know you don't pay much attention to it but it is disheartning. But rememeber, people will look at your stone for only few minutes. The comments will be made only for a year or two. But then afterwards, you will be having that stone for the next forty years. This is going to be with you. Its not new car thats going to end in junkyard. In a way, diamond is forever. If you have quality, its going to there with you. Later when you pass it on in your family, if it is a nice well-cut stone, people will see it, remember and say that grandma had really good, exclusive taste.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#167 @ 08-22-02 , 01:31 PM


pp1578 said he gave his fiancee a list of diamonds and she chose clarity over size every time. Her first choice was his second. They both prefer higher clarity diamonds. Sounds like a perfect match to me!

It is patronizing to suggest that this couple doesn't understand the ramifications of their own preferences while we pretend to understand their preferences without even knowing them! 43facets, please consider this: It is entirely likely that this woman, even if she is young, does know what she wants and is not going to regret it later. Some people, including women, prefer smaller higher clarity stones. It may not be the usual preference and apparently isn't for you or your social circle, but it does happen.

I believe that pp1578 was looking at a .68 carat ring. My own ring is 80 points but cut too deep so that the diameter is closer to that of a well-cut 3/4 carat ring. In other words, not much different in size than a well cut 68 pointer which should face up bigger by virtue of better cut. I am 41, been married for 13 years and wear my engagement ring proudly. I chose it myself--it didn't look too small to me then and it does not now. Just giving an alternate point of view...

Maria

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#168 @ 08-22-02 , 03:07 PM


I prefer small stone with high color and clarity when it comes to round colorless diamonds. Anything larger than 1 carat looks odd on my hand in a round. I have tried on larger fancy shaped diamonds and fancy colored diamonds; they all appear nice on my hand. There's just something about that big, white headlight effect that does not work for me. I do love to look at them and admire the ones my friends have (from 1.5-4 carats in size). Perhaps my perception will change with age, but I doubt it. I still feel the same way at nearly 40 that I did at 23. However, if I happen to received one as a gift, I would not turn it away.

MavMom

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#169 @ 08-22-02 , 04:39 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Maria D
It may not be the usual preference and apparently isn't for you or your social circle, but it does happen.


Maria

Maria


Repectfully, I resent your inference. I have friends from all walks of life and some that don't give a hoot about diamonds. One that proudly wears her 1/3 carat stone even though they could buy & sell most people.

My point was not necessarily directed to PP158. But that choosing an engagement ring is not about the man's preferences it is about the women's. And, while there are many women who would pick the finest small stone - fact is that many would like to massage the parameters and go w/ a larger say - G VS2. I, as a women, would like to be given that choice. In a marriage, decisions are made together weighing all variables - at least in our family.

Yes, he mentioned he gave his GF a list of stones and her choices were similiar to his. I said that if that's their choice - then more power to them.

I think everyone should see what a D IF .68 stone looks like against a G VS2 1.0 c stone. Then, you have enough information and can understand more fully, the ramifications of your choice.

I think there exists a flaw in the rationale that the man doesn't care what other people think - just what's his preference. It is the women who wears this ring.

I am only speaking from experience. We went w/ a very high quality smaller stone. It was extremely disheartening at the time that most people just ogled over the larger stones. I'm just imparting how I felt. How do you say to someone who is admiring a larger stone "Hey, that's a crappy large stone, mine is a D IF" At least, I would never say it.

Looking back, I said I don't regret our choice because the stone is awesome. I've longed for a big rock....and I have to wonder if that is not due to the fact that very few people were clued into the quality of my stone.

I want to repeat, I am not advocating buying a poor quality stone to buy big. Just that a happy balance can be maintained.

On the flip side, while I love my .70 F VVS stone - it's quite stark for my taste (it has some blue fluor - so even faces up a little better grade. Some women may prefer a more warmer mellower color of a G/H even higher grade.

My opinion was just that - my opinion. I based on reading numerous post from men who dug their heels in on a certain color w/o the understanding that most people can not see the difference in a well cut D IF stone and a well cut F VS2 stone. Size, however, will be noticed.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#170 @ 08-22-02 , 07:24 PM


>>Repectfully, I resent your inference.<<

??? I am inferring that the usual preference may be for size over clarity and that it does appear (by what you have written) that you and people you know feel that way. How can you resent this inference...isn't it your point? I actually think you are right about this...most people *do* want to see a bigger rock and do not care about flaws unless they are visible.

>>My point was not necessarily directed to PP158. But that choosing an engagement ring is not about the man's preferences it is about the women's. <<

You have changed your tone here, 43facets. Before you were speaking directly to this person, saying that regardless of what he prefers and what his gf is telling him, he would do better to massage the numbers so that for the same money he is getting more rock. It did not matter to you that his girlfriend chose higher clarity smaller stones on paper. You discounted this as a result of her inexperience in showing off an engagement ring, youth, etc. You definitely spoke with a tone of the wisdom that comes with age & experience. As an older person myself, with my own experiences, I thought I'd present an alternate view for pp1578 (and likeminded individuals, men or women).

Maria

Last edited by Maria-D : 08-22-02 at 07:25 PM.
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Re: Why do people buy VVS quality diamonds?
Quote this post and reply to it Post#171 @ 10-28-09 , 03:44 PM


I have been shopping for diamonds lately as most of you have or will be. The discussion over VVS1 and other is of interest to me.

One of the stones I am looking at is just over 100 points, but essentially a 1 carat F VVS1 princess cut from a long time family friend who deals in solely fine diamonds - he used to supply jewelers, but now only sells to owners of jewlery stores and others who may want a diamond and quality cut that they wouldn't normally carry.

One of his arguments towards the higher clarity, like VVS1, is that many cutters of fine diamonds will not bother to give the best possible cut to something along the lines of an SI. Therefore to find a diamond that is extremely well cut, you generally are going to be in the VVS1 and VVS2 category. (not sure that made as much sense in writing as it did in my head

Not sure if this is accurate however. Maybe he just has a strong personal bias towards VVS1. After reading all of these posts, I feel like maybe the 1 ct. VVS1 isn't going to be big enough and maybe I should bump to 1.25 or 1.5 and make some sacrifice on the clarity...

haha.

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Re: Why do people buy VVS quality diamonds?
Quote this post and reply to it Post#172 @ 12-08-09 , 09:04 PM


As an amateur, I'd buy size and give up a little clarity, that's if the naked eye can't pick up.


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Re: Why do people buy VVS quality diamonds?
Quote this post and reply to it Post#173 @ 12-23-09 , 07:32 PM


For one buying a diamond is more about the experience than the tangible nature of the thing.

Many will try to buy the most perfect stone they can thinking anything less (even though invisible) is an issue.

I picked up a hearts and arrow and went .75 G VVS1 instead of a .80 F VS2 and some larger SI. I have seen a diamond that was rated SI1, but you could see the issue with a naked eye from the side.

Also I do think many women are wearing stones far too big for their hands, esp many that go a bit big then add side stones and loaded settings.

I like the simple knife edged look in four or six prongs. Let the stone do the talking.

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Re: Why do people buy VVS quality diamonds?
Quote this post and reply to it Post#174 @ 12-24-09 , 05:44 PM


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt

You guys on this forum are right. Ideal cut is baloney.


I don't know about that ... a large poorly cut stone looks crappy compared to a well cut smaller stone. My last fiancee had a .73 carat princess that people swore was a lot bigger than it was.

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Re: Why do people buy VVS quality diamonds?
Quote this post and reply to it Post#175 @ 12-25-09 , 05:49 PM


Because VVS is close to best quality.

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