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Old Aimee S
 
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Itbit
Quote this post and reply to it Post#126 @ 04-06-02 , 04:25 PM


Thank you, Itbit! He has filled almost every window in my house with stained glass. He also made a stained glass lamp for me that I love, also. Every time I look at it, it makes me smile and laugh when I remember all the cuss words my little ears heard when he couldn't get pieces to line up exactly the way he wanted them to. The little cubes were a great way to get all my sentimental "clutter" together in one spot.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#127 @ 04-06-02 , 04:30 PM


I think eloping and cheap weddings are great!
My parents offered to pay whatever I wanted for my wedding. They were impressed because I planned it where $1200 covered:
the dress
the reception in a restaurant for 65 (great food/no alcohol)
flowers
musicians
minister and professional photographer (the same man! His wife took the photos when he married us)
Hard to believe, but everything was first rate (it was 1989, and in a small town where things aren't expensive).
Shortly afterwards, I went to my cousin's big, expensive wedding in a Silicon Valley country club. The marriage lasted under a year.

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DH???
Quote this post and reply to it Post#128 @ 04-06-02 , 05:05 PM


I know it's probably something sooo simple, but I can't seem to figure it out. What's "DH."

.Px.



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Quote this post and reply to it Post#129 @ 04-06-02 , 05:07 PM


DH=
"dear husband" or "darling husband"

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#130 @ 04-06-02 , 05:35 PM


That's much nicer than the "dumb, demented, derelict, dopey" descriptors I was dreaming up.

I was rooting for "Designated Hitter" meself.

Thanks!

[Edited by Px on 04-06-02 at 04:38 PM]

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GIA
Quote this post and reply to it Post#131 @ 04-06-02 , 06:42 PM


We met in Alaska our freshman year of college - then he transferred schools for Idaho just a few months later. I was so miserable without him that I transferred too. We've been dating for about three and a half years now! I wish we could get married now, but I know it's not really practical.

I think you're right about the age factor. A lot of us who are younger are waiting for the same types of reasons (me, Polyhex, Jess, etc...). I come from a small, fairly religious community and have gotten a lot of criticism for my choices. Many of the girls I graduated from high school with in 1998 have already been married for a couple years. I just have to do what's right for me. I feel good about my decisions and my relationship. And now, I get to spend the next 11.5 months planning a wedding.

Em

P.S. I thought of something else to bring up - that's actually related to the thread. It's been on the heterosexist side. Imagine a hypothetical situation involving a relationship between two women or two men. Suppose they've been in a monogamous, loving relationship with each other and one presents the other with an engagement ring - the intent being they will have a formal commitment ceremony in the near-ish future. Suppose then that the relationship ends. In everyone else's eyes, is the reciever of the ring obligated (legally and ethically) to return it?

Empresseva, this is a *GREAT* thread. There's been a lot of debate, but it's been constructive and interesting.

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Re: GIA
Quote this post and reply to it Post#132 @ 04-06-02 , 07:44 PM


Quote:
Imagine a hypothetical situation involving a relationship between two women or two men...Suppose then that the relationship ends. In everyone else's eyes, is the reciever of the ring obligated (legally and ethically) to return it?


Of course, Em. I don't see why we've felt we needed to drag in so many gray areas into this thread. I think for those of us with strong beliefs about this, it's pretty B&W one way or the other.

To the elopement thing. Funny enough, my little sister, who is far from getting married, mentioned last night that she read somewhere that you can have cheap elopements in exotic locations. I've always thought I supported adults who think about a wedding and decide instead to elope, but I was a bit put out when my sister said this. I found it so hurtful that she would think of the marriage as so *solely* between her and her potential DH that she would exclude all her family and loved ones.

Eva, obviously I don't think this of you, and up until last night I thought it was hypothetically a cool thing to do. But, when my sister said, "but we'll have a reception when we get back" all I could think was how selfish her whole idea was, that a cheap exotic wedding/honeymoon was more important than having us witness her wedding. I didn't even realize I'd have such a reaction or that I would find being at my baby sister's wedding so important!

Again, I hope I'm not offending anyone. I know anyone here who elopes/eloped had good reasons, but right now it's just about my sister and how strangely hurt I still am.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#133 @ 04-06-02 , 08:30 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by Hest88
Of course, Em. I don't see why we've felt we needed to drag in so many gray areas into this thread. I think for those of us with strong beliefs about this, it's pretty B&W one way or the other.
[/B]


Forgive me for thinking it was interesting and fun to imagine how the logic applied in different situations.



[Edited by emnightingale on 04-06-02 at 07:51 PM]

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Em...
Quote this post and reply to it Post#134 @ 04-07-02 , 01:12 AM


Oh, I'm sorry. I just re-read my post and realized how harsh it sounded. I definitely didn't mean that it was silly to bring up alternative scenarios for discussion. I just found it weird that the logic that seemed so clear in my mind seemed so squishy to others. Not that that's wrong, of course. It's just like loving chocolate and not understanding people who are indifferent to its charms.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#135 @ 04-07-02 , 02:39 AM


TaraInWA and Em,

I'm glad you're enjoying the thread. Everybody made insightful contributions.

TaraInWA, thank you for your compliment! You're very nice to say that!

Your posts are very good, too.

Hest,

I understand where you're coming from, and how you feel.

Before my husband and I decided to elope, I had a family meeting with my nuclear family. I had a small family - my parents, and a younger sister (like you). At the time, I was trying to make a decision, and to plan. My family's preferences were important to me, so I had a meeting with them. Surprisingly, all my family members told me to make my own decision, and they would support any decision I would make. They made no requests or demands on me.

Believe or not, at that moment, I started to cry. I told them they would be disappointed in me because I considered us eloping alone in Las Vegas. For myself, having a wedding was not important. However, if they would like a nice wedding, I would be happy to do that for them, as their feelings were important to me. I told them I didn't want to be selfish.

My family stood by their view, and remained warm and supportive. They insisted they would be fine with me eloping. We were all sentimentally tearful. They gave me their blessings.

If any of my family members were displeased with my preference to elope, I wouldn't have done it. When it came to my family, I wouldn't have been overly selfish in that way.

Have you expressed your feelings to your sister? Maybe that will affect her decision.

[Edited by empresseva on 04-07-02 at 01:41 AM]


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Don't worry about it.
Quote this post and reply to it Post#136 @ 04-07-02 , 04:15 PM


I obviously misunderstood - no big deal.

Eva, I think it's fantastic that your family was so supportive! My mom started to cry when we talked about eloping. So we're having a real wedding. But my fiance told me last night that if we don't have money for a honeymoon, he'll use some of his to take me to Vegas for two or three days.



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Quote this post and reply to it Post#137 @ 04-07-02 , 06:44 PM


Em, thanks for understanding my lapse. I'd hate to be mean to a fellow EC lover. After all, we've got to stick together!

Eva, actually I casually whined during the course of the conversation---as if it were no big deal. You know, "but you don't mind not having us at your wedding" and "you'd deprive me of a good excuse to go to Scotland"? But, she's always been the baby of the family---6 years younger than I am---headstrong, and we've all done our part to spoil her. She's also a Leo, so that doesn't help. As I said, a wedding is so many years away, so she may change her mind by then, but...

Well, she's a bit self-centered, but never malicious, so I'd like to think that if she really choose to do it we could convince her not to. I do *not* want to deal with my mother if my sister actually ends up deciding to do this.

And, of course, Eva, I know you would never do anything to hurt your family. Especially since, even though we are on different sides on this thread, it just further reveals what a sweet, loving person you are.

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Re: Don't worry about it.
Quote this post and reply to it Post#138 @ 04-07-02 , 07:00 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by emnightingale


Eva, I think it's fantastic that your family was so supportive! My mom started to cry when we talked about eloping.


It is true that it is *WONDERFUL* that Eva's family was so supportive. My family would have been the same way. (They are very unselfish.)

I, on the other hand, would make em's mother look staunch and stalwart if *my* daughter said she was eloping!! Who is this wedding for anyway? The kids? (I'll let you guess .) They'll have their turn. This is *MY* turn. The mother of the bride finally gets to plan a wedding the way *she* wants one!!! Hey, it's *TRADITION*!!!

AGBF

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#139 @ 04-07-02 , 07:08 PM


The mother of *this* bride has promised to stay out of the planning as much as possible. Not that she can't be involved, but simply that she says what I want can override what she wants. However, the mother of the groom once told me she thinks wedding dresses are a waste of money. I have the feeling that once the planning starts to come out she will have an opinion about *everything*. Maybe I don't give her enough credit but I'm a little worried.

Em

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#140 @ 04-07-02 , 07:18 PM


Em, at least you're prepared. There's nothing like a wedding to push everyone's buttons. I don't think there's anothe rite-of-life that is suppose to incorporate so many different wishes. Although this was my second wedding, and we were paying for everything, my mother still tried to change as many of our decisions as she could! But then, that's my mother! She even made me cry at our rehearsal dinner---and not in a good way! It's hard, but try to stand your ground, as politely as possible, for the things you really want, and, if you can, compromise on things that aren't really important for the sake of future family harmony. You're going to be such a beautiful bride!

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The Definitive Answer
Quote this post and reply to it Post#141 @ 04-07-02 , 07:21 PM



Quote:
Originally posted by hakalugi


That's not the case. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I view it as a symbol of the upcoming marriage, and not just a gift.

(snip)

And like I said about the copper ring- I'd want it back- because what it stood for is no more. Not because our engagement is a contract, but because the symbol (the best I could do at the time, even if it's copper ) is not for 'being my fiance' but for us being spouses.



I can relate to this. When I was 12 a 15 year old boy (Jimmy Callahan) asked me to go steady. I wore his ID bracelet while we were going steady. When we broke up, I gave it back .

Things are more complicated nowadays. Miss Manners and I tend to feel engagement rings are returned if the engagement is terminated. We used to feel quite strongly about this...but then we also felt strongly about wearing white shoes only between Memorial Day and Labor Day.

Social relationships have become a trifle more complicated in the past two or three decades. Now one has to consider the engaged couple that breaks up after having lived together for 17 years in a jointly owned house with three children they had together.

For that reason (the complexity of modern relationships) I have decided that what other people do with their engagement rings is none of my business unless they are trying to sell them to me .

AGBF

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#142 @ 04-07-02 , 07:33 PM


Ah, AGBF, truly an enlightened answer!

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#143 @ 04-07-02 , 11:16 PM


I think one important point that kind of got glossed over is that all of us are basing our judgements on our own personal experiences and then generalizing them to others.

I had an ex who mailed back everything that I'd ever given him. Was I hurt? Shocked? Devastated? Nah, I laughed. I thought it showed how pathetic and petty he was. Apparently this isn't the average reaction to such an event . This also did not involve an engagement ring.

I confronted my DH with this question today. He gave the answer I was expecting which was that if I had precipitated the breakup, he would want the ring back because, and I quote, "I'm a guy who doesn't spend time on Diamondtalk so I would foolishly believe that I could sell the ring for as much as I paid for it, if not more." hee hee .

But thinking about what I would do in this situation. If I precipitated the breakup or it was a mutual agreement, I would offer the ring back because that's the right thing to do (IMO). If he precipitated the breakup by doing something egregious, I would sell the ring as quickly as possible for whatever I could get for it (if I were feeling particularly spiteful, I might let him know from which pawnshop he could buy it back). However, in either case, I certainly would not keep the ring. Because after a relationship ends, my goal is to move on, and for me, that means not holding on to reminders of that person. And maybe this is because I've been the breakup-ee rather than the breakup-er more often, but a breakup is something you move on from and I think that holding on to meaningful objects (particularly something as loaded with emotion as an engagement ring) slows down the healing process.

For me, this has been backed up by my experiences. My very first "love"--serious long term relationship ended, and I packed all of the important mementos into a box--letters, pictures, trinkets, jewelry, etc. Because I thought "I can't look at these now, but later I'm going to think back on our happy times and when I do, I'll have these to remember them by." It seemed a very romantic thing to do. Then, about 3 years later and well into my next long term relationship, I found the box and went through it and was like "why did I save this crap?" I did not wistfully think of the good times I had with my ex--I was too busy having good times with my current love. And the fact was, I really just didn't care that much. Yeah, there were great times, but I'm in a much better relationship now and I'm creating even better times. So most of the stuff got tossed.

Now a story like Gin's--that just breaks your heart! But for a regular old breakup, a relationship that ran its course, well, call me unsentimental, but my motto is move on.

Shelby





[Edited by shelbyscout on 04-07-02 at 11:19 PM]

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#144 @ 04-07-02 , 11:30 PM


I am ashamed to admit this but I have a "friend" who received a Round 2.00 diamond e-ring from her (doctor) boyfriend. When they broke up, he asked for the ring back (she was unfaithful), she told him she "lost it". But in fact she did not lose it, she "hocked it" and went shopping with the money. I was truly unhappy with her for doing it. Now she wants the boyfriend back, but he is now engaged to a NICE girl and they are very happy. She is now miserable and dating a real loser. I believe you get what's coming to you. Her day is coming. I don't really speak to her much anymore. She is not what I would consider a "good friend" anymore.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#145 @ 04-08-02 , 12:38 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by missyricker
I am ashamed to admit this but I have a "friend" who received a Round 2.00 diamond e-ring from her (doctor) boyfriend. When they broke up, he asked for the ring back (she was unfaithful), she told him she "lost it". But in fact she did not lose it, she "hocked it" and went shopping with the money. I was truly unhappy with her for doing it. Now she wants the boyfriend back, but he is now engaged to a NICE girl and they are very happy. She is now miserable and dating a real loser. I believe you get what's coming to you. Her day is coming. I don't really speak to her much anymore. She is not what I would consider a "good friend" anymore.


wow, that's pretty low.

but we all know of some 'lowpoint' of either gender in these kinds of situations.

a lot of stuff has been typed about the writers projecting personal experiences into their feelings. Some have come forward admitting that this may be the case- and that's a brave thing to say.

I'm glad to say that I've never previously been engaged or married (I don't have the rock/setting yet so I haven't asked yet) so I can't share from personal experience, on what I would do- I was arguing a hypothetical in that I've never 'been there'.

I have, once, been given a bunch of 'gift/personal' stuff back after a breakup- from a very angry girl at college. Seems my not wanting her pissed her off to the point of wanting to nullify the whole 1.5 year relationship (ironic: her pressuring me to buy her a ring- at 19 years old a college sophmore- is what put me over the "SEE_YA" edge); so I understood what you all were writing on that point, and why i felt qualified to differentiate between the 'give back' of nick-naks and of the e-ring, in that they were given (or about to be given) under a different vain.

And from my bold type 'reasons' for posting many follow-ups (the anti-vilify and anti-lessen points) note I never said "always" (...offer to give the ring back).

I know of 2 examples of, when the males were shits, in which the rings stayed with the 'receiver' and I have no problems calling the "keeper" girls my friends.

1) he cheated. this wasn't a one time thing. he'd been having this 'side dish' weekly since before he proposed. he gave the ring. she wore it. luckily she found out before the wedding. she refused to return the ring and she sold it. (as a self-gratifying action for her; and a punative action towards him. I thought what she did is fine, and I would've wanted my sister (if I had one) to do the same)

2) a girl who's married to one of my buddies was previously engaged. while in a controlled substance effected state, he (the former fiance) stole plenty of cash form her and ran up her 'borrowed' credit cards. obviously she was not liable for the charges, but she was still out the cash. she sold the ring to cover some of her losses. again, good for her.

I know that these are extreme examples- but I just didn't want to finish off letting you guys think that I have never agreed with any 'exceptions', etc. There are plenty of scenarios that fall in-between the plain-vanilla hypothetical example we were originally considering, and the 2 screw-ups i listed above. And that's where things get pretty messy.

Agreed- good thread Eva.

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#146 @ 04-08-02 , 12:20 PM


Shelby, actually, I wasn't basing my opinion on personal experience, but rather what I think is the right thing to do. Like Hakalugi, though, I agree that in some circumstances, such as he described, a woman can feel justified in keeping the ring.

Missyricker, I wouldn't want to remain friends with a woman like that either!

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Quote this post and reply to it Post#147 @ 04-08-02 , 01:39 PM


Yes, I agree. I felt very fortunate my family was supportive, especially since they were Chinese. Their view was unusual.

Hest, again, I understand where you're coming from. Have you tried to talk seriously with your sister to express your feelings (not to change her mind, but to express your sentiments)?

I actually worried that my sister felt like you did. After the family meeting, I spoke privately with her. I wanted to make sure she expressed her sincere feelings to me. Also, I worried she may feel pressured to have a nice wedding someday because my parents may not get one from me. I was willing to have wedding to take the heat off of her (so to speak). My sister assured me she was fine with me eloping. She told me she would have a wedding regardless of what I decide. We thought that was good news, as my parents will at least have a wedding from her.

Consider expressing your view to your sister. It may or may not change her mind, but it wouldn't hurt.

Missyricker, your friend's behavior was disgraceful - the infidelity, the lying, the selling of the ring; all of it!

In some ways, I think her day has already come. Look at the state of her life.

[Edited by empresseva on 04-08-02 at 01:43 PM]


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Quote this post and reply to it Post#148 @ 04-13-02 , 11:56 AM


My girlfriend won her case last week. He gave her a 5 carat diamond on Christmas, and she broke off the engagement 6 months later (he cheated). Judge ruled it was a gift because it was given on a holiday. Too bad for him!!! She sold it and paid off her car.

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