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Post#1 @
01-28-02
, 01:22 PM
I am somewhat new at this so please stick with me. I am looking for the most brilliant diamond I can afford, sacrificing size of course. Am I safe in assuming that 8 star is the best of the best? Secondly, if I were to take a step down, what is the best tool, test or analysis that I could ask to see when comparing others (like H&A, and branded diamonds) so that I can compare apples to apples? Thanks in advance The above "Ask Diamond Talk" post was filled out online at http://www.diamondring.com/forums/n...amondq uestion |
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Post#2 @
01-28-02
, 03:12 PM
If you're able, ask the brands Rockdoc has mentioned for local dealer information and take a look. That's the best way to determine which look you prefer. While you wrote that you wanted most brilliance, I'm not sure that you actually meant that you wanted the one with the most white light output. That is what brilliance implies. The other side of light output is fire, the colored light. The reason it matters is that different diamonds tend to favor different balances of colored or white light, so if you ask for most brilliant you're going to be pointed towards the diamonds with most white light output. The EightStars are generally on the upper side of the fire part of the light output range. If you really do prefer the white light rather than the colored, you may be better served by considering the A Cut Above or SuperbCert instead of an EightStar, though it would still be good for you to see and omcpare them yourself in case you get a surprise. If you take a look at the Holloway Cut Advisor and the diamond tutorial over at pricescope.com you'll find that it categorises diamonds in a range from firey ideals through Tolkowsky ideals and on to brilliant ideals (FIC -> TIC -> BIC). This doesn't mean that either is inherently better, just that it predicts that a particular diamond is more likely to favor one or the other. Which is actually better depends on the look you prefer. |
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Post#3 @
01-28-02
, 03:16 PM
Rockdoc, Thanks for your feedback. Based on your response, I am going to assume those are the top 3. I already checked out 2 of them but was having trouble determining the difference between them. One uses a idealscope, the other uses a brilliancescope, and the third uses something else. How can I compare? Anyways thanks again, |
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Post#4 @
01-28-02
, 03:21 PM
James D, I wrote Rockdoc before reading your reply. You actually cleared up quite a bit. I never understood the difference between brilliance and fire (I figured they were the same). I will pursue both of your advice. Thank you both |
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Post#5 @
01-28-02
, 03:23 PM
Rockdoc is right, it will come down to your personal preference. I'm a quality geek and I do like the Eightstar. I truly appreciate it's excellence, but when I saw one next to an ideal cut H&A I honestly couldn't say that it so vastly outperformed the other as to justify the significant price jump. But if money were no object, well that would be different. For comparing diamonds online the Firescope, the HCA, and the Brilliancescope are your friends. Any good dealer will be able to give you the info to compare the three. Read the tutorial on http://www.goodoldgold.com and you'll see why. But I also strongly suggest visiting Jonathan, or another dealer who can show you these stones in person. Only then will you be able to judge which you prefer. If seeing them in person is impossible then know that if you choose any of these top branded cuts that meets your budget and your specs you WILL get a truly stunning diamond. Jamesd made some good points worth considering in this thread: http://www.diamondring.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=12519 Take your time choosing. You are on the right track, and way ahead of the majority of diamond consumers. |
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Post#6 @
01-28-02
, 04:09 PM
Both RockDoc and Jamesd are correct. EightStar is noted for fire. That is what sold me on mine. It is the look that my fiance wanted more than the brilliance look. None of the other H&As that we saw came close to the EightStar in this respect, sorry emachell for disagreeing. It all depends on what you are looking for and what your budget is. You should try to view all and determine which look you want. You will also need to prioritize the importance of the remaining C's (Carat wt., Clarity and Color). You will then know what you will get for your budget. It is a great journey. Have fun with it. Best Regards, Big Nik |
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Post#7 @
01-28-02
, 04:23 PM
Big Nik -- no need to apologize for disagreeing. Everyone has their input. We all just want to help. And from what I've read recently the colored light vs. white light does seem to be what many of you say sets the Eightstar apart from the others. I'm sure you and the other Eightstar owners did not waste your money. I would like to see more b'scope results for the Eightstar, and compare them again with the SC and ACA in person, since I've seen many b'scopes for SCs that scored higher on colored light than on white light. |
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Post#8 @
01-28-02
, 04:53 PM
Great posts everyone!!! I truly appreciate all the feedback and advice. Seems like the major theme I am getting back from everyone is to research a bit more to better define what I'm looking for and then actually compare them (preferably in person or at least through B-scopes analysis and such). I definately got my answer. Thanks again |
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Post#9 @
01-28-02
, 04:54 PM
Hi emachell, From what I saw prior to the sale and what I've seen since receiving the ring, one must be careful. The way that I understand how the term fire is defined is colored light return. The problem that I have with the Bscope is that the light intensity is relatively high. I certainly don't know this for sure though. Please correct if I am wrong. Where the EightStar excels is low light conditions. Under dim light such as candlelight, the look is amazing. The local jeweler that sells EightStar also carries unbranded H&As and ACA diamonds. Under low light conditions at his store, there really was no comparison as far as I was concerned. Under normal store lighting, the stones were non-differentiable by me. One aspect of all of the Bscope testing that I don't see talked about is that it is a machine with a machine's analytical ability to make accurate measurements against a standard developed by a group of experts. Is the standard correct? I'm sure it is in that a certain score results in a great looking diamond. That is pretty much proven. However, is it an accurate measure of all of a diamond's performance characteristics? No way! That is why there are other tools. Which is more accurate? Don't know and don't really care. Why? I don't believe that a certain score correlates at all with your eyes. What is the sensitivity of a person's eyes relative to the difference between a VH and H rating on the Bscope? Does it really matter? I haven't seen any experimentation to date that tries to quantify if a small difference in Bscope results is noticeable by a human eye. Your eyes are not as accurate as a machine nor do two people see the same things. That is why I believe that your eye is the final arbitrer. That is why 10 people can look at a group of well cut diamonds under the same conditions at the same time and not agree as to which is better. Who is right in that case? The buyer of course. I really can't say how my EightStar would do on a Bscope. Do I care? Not at all. If someone, some day, correlates Bscope measurements with visual responses from a large group of people, it would interest me as it would add some knowledge to why people choose what they do. That is my .02. Best Regards, Big Nik |
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Post#10 @
01-28-02
, 05:43 PM
Hi Big Nik -- you make some very interesting points. And I think we are generally in agreement. There have been a number of threads that challenge the b'scope and question how it compares to the human visual experience. I don't consider it the ultimate authority on diamond beauty/performance, only one of many helpful tools to employ when making such a significant purchase. So it comes down to this: Taste and preference are, as we all agree HIGHLY subjective. Everyone likes what they like, and no one ever thinks they have BAD taste. Personally I would not want to make such a large investment without seeing the diamonds, and comparing them for myself. But for many people this is not a practical option. So hopefully if they do enough reading and research they can figure out what they want, and feel safe about buying a really stunning diamond over the net, sight unseen. Many DTers have done that and been extremely satisfied. I am relieved that you said "Under normal store lighting, the stones were non-differentiable by me." -- since I like to think my powers of observation are pretty fine-tuned. Now I believe you when you say the Eightstar slams the others under low light conditions. But is this more with candlelight, or just ordinary low, indirect light? I don't spend enough of my life in candlelight to want to choose a brand based on candlelight performance, but I have to admit that here in my dimly lit apartment my ACA is not as full of brilliance/fire/scintillation as I would like. It DOES look amazing anywhere else I go though. You are clearly an extraordinary guy, and went to great lengths to get your girl a really amazing and special diamond ring. (yes, I admit I am totally envious!) I would faint with delight if I were ever so lucky to be given something that beautiful. I wish you both a lifetime of happiness. Best, eden |
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Post#11 @
01-28-02
, 06:53 PM
Hi Eden, By low light, I mean not only candlelight but indirect lighting, cloudy or overcast daylight too or a dimly lit apartment. Anything but a direct sunlight or office environment where there are numerous lights (Fluorescent or incandescent) all around you. Your point about "everywhere else..." is the exact reason that I don't like the Bscope as much as some other tools. I don't know very much about the EightStar cutting methods but they swear by the firescope. To tell you the truth, when I looked at firescope images of the different H&A diamonds at the local EightStar jeweler, they all looked comparable. The two things I noticed were the total lack of clear regions around the perimeter of the image when I compared the EightStar to the others and more detail in the image; I think they are called stars but I could be wrong. Does this give the EightStar its uniqueness; I don't know. Maybe some better informed people on DT can add to this conversation. BTW, I am far from extraordinary. I HATE buying things twice. When my then GF and I discussed the diamond choice, she clearly made the decision that smaller and better cut was more important than large. The decision was then easy to make. Best Regards, Big Nik |
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Post#12 @
01-28-02
, 10:10 PM
Thanks rockdoc. It definitely helps. Being that the bscope results are revised when a new cut surpasses the old one, what is the reigning standard? Has anyone published a summarized list of the reigning best over time? It would be interesting to see. Although your comments regarding the digital nature of the camera vs. the analog nature of the human eye is true, it is true that the human eye loses or is not as sensitive as digital instruments in certain areas. It is also true that low light sensitivity is one of those areas. The major advantage that digital instruments have is that they are accumulators of information. A CCD in a digital camera will continue to increase light intensity over time. The longer the shutter speed, the brighter an image becomes. The human eye does not perform this function. That is why I think that the Bscope is not the first tool that I would use to base my decision on. That is why I asked previously, if anyone has ever really performed an experiment to determine if a person can really tell the difference between a diamond scoring an H vs. a diamond scoring a VH. Best Regards, Big Nik |
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Post#13 @
01-28-02
, 11:57 PM
wow, really interesting thread for a techie. You can tell Big Nik is a EE. I work in the field of hyperspectral imagery, where we not only measure the intensity of light in the optical range, we split the optical range (about 300-750 nanometers) into 256 bins (or colors, analagous to "fire") and then measure it on a CCD. When we get direct reflections of the sun off the sea surface with our imager, we call it glint, and try to remove it with algorithms I develop, so we can see things like coral reefs and whales and submarines and mines below the sea surface. In a diamond, I suppose this is called external reflection, a component of brilliance, and is one thing we're after in a diamond. So who cares? What this has taught me is that the image is the result of several settings, like exposure time as Big Nik said, and several others. We have to calibrate the machine before and after we use it against a standard. Now Rockdoc tells us that they change the scale after someone gets a higher scoring diamond with a software update. Hay Caramba!!! Don't you see the potential for abuse of this instrument? Never adjust (re-calibrate) your B-scope, leave it set for low scoring stones, and your new stones will be off the scale relative to the guy who does recalibrate! Let me make it clear that I am not accusing ANYONE of actually doing this, and maybe there are built-in protections. I'd like to see how the thing works. I think in my limited time on DT I have seen too much faith in the science, i.e. the idea that "numbers don't lie." The numbers are only as good as the machine and the meticulousness of the person who ran it. Personally, I think the same B-scope run by the same operator will give you a RELATIVE idea of a group of diamonds performance, relative within that group. Like a group of stones you send to Rockdoc's B-scope, for example. But I would be very very skeptical of comparing B-scopes between different vendors. If you are serious about buying a diamond, you don't let the dealer write the color and clarity on the certificate. You let a neutral grading lab do it. Why should B-scopes be any different? Because it is a machine instead of a person? Big mistake in my view. I'm not saying the B-scope is bad or worthless, I'm just saying that until AGS or GIA adopt its use, you should take the measurements with a grain of salt. Another interesting (well to me anyway) thought was that from what I understand, the Firescope actually predates the 8* diamond. I.e., the 8* was developed as the stone which looks perfect in the instrument. Wonder if someone could figure out how to cut a stone that gives the highest B-scope readings? What looks good to the B-scope may not necessarily be what looks good to the human eye, because one is machine vision and one is human vision. I'm so jealous of you people who can actually see all of these stones and make the comparison yourself! |
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Post#14 @
01-29-02
, 11:43 AM
I agree. Interesting about the sliding scale. Why wouldn't the scale be a reference diamond that doesn't change. It seems that Bscope results are useless as an absolute comaprison if the comaprison diamond is constantly changing. Is there ever any mention or notification to the general public when a change occurs? What metrics are used to determine if the new reference is actually better? What governing body decides on when to change and how is it controlled? Is it validated by a group or a certified lab? This tool seems to have many holes. Big Nik |
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Nik
Post#15 @
01-29-02
, 12:15 PM
Have you proposed yet? How is GF feeling? |
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Post#16 @
01-29-02
, 01:10 PM
Hi Iris, Yes the proposal was made and accepted last Saturday. I had to change it a little as my GF was still not at 100%. When she saw the ring, she really didn't say anything for a while. I guess she was quite shocked. She is ecstatic though. It was much larger than she hoped for and it looks great on her. Actually, when I first saw it, I was thinking that it was too large but it does look great on her finger and has solicited numerous inquiries. I showed it to a couple of my friends and got responses like... Are you proposing to one girl? The thing could choke a cat! You are insane! I have to prevent my GF or Fiance from seeing this. Quite funny but typically male. Best Regards, Big Nik |
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Post#17 @
01-29-02
, 01:56 PM
>>Are you proposing to one girl? The thing could choke a cat! You are insane! << I nearly sprayed coffee all over my PC monitor reading that! too funny.... Whatever happened to a simple "Congratulations!" Congratulations Big Nik! I really, really, hope you'll post a picture of the ring on your fiancees finger. Maria |
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I was in your shoes ...
Dear Searchinghighandlow: I was just in your shoes recently, and I can tell you that you need to LOOK at the diamonds yourself to see which you prefer ... but let the Brilliance Scope weed out which ones you should look at. Here is a note about my experience, and a copy of the Brilliance Scope report that I ended up buying: http://www.diamondring.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=12555 Good Luck!! |
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